Getting the MIDI into the effects placed after a synth

[KTlin]

Hi guys

On a MIDI track let's say I have a synth, and after that I have an effect (e.g. Turnado).
I want to control some knobs in Turnado with the modulation wheel on my keyboard, but I can't do the MIDI learn on Turnado because no MIDI signal gets past the synth.
This is incredible. In Live 8 I had to create another MIDI track and use it to send MIDI from the keyboard to the track containing the synth and the effect. So another track just for this!!! Why track 2 can send midi to the effect on track 1, but the track 1 on which that effect is, can't do it, is beyond my comprehension. And beyond my comprehension is the reason Ableton choose to block the MIDI signal after the synth and not let it thru, in order to be used on the effects placed after the synth.
But I was under the impression that in Live 9 this has been resolved. Well.... I just found out it hasn't.
So, I'm asking: is there another way I can send midi thru a synth and into the effects that are placed after the synth?
Maybe a M4L device or something?

Cheers

[Pitch Black]

Not sure I understand your problem. In the pic below I have an Operator, followed by Turnado. The Turnado controls are mapped to incoming MIDI knobs and it works fine.



Do you have "Remote" switched on for your controller keyboard in Live's MIDI preferences?

[Steve Glen]

You should be able to use the MIDI mapping technique posted above. That should do the trick. ... or maybe just have the blue hand (device focused) on Tornado.


A little unrelated because it deals with sending midi notes to audio FX, I saw Real Cardinal do an awesome tutorial on Warp Academy's free symposium, where he put the audio FX kinda sorta in parallel, but not. Does anyone remember how that worked? I have no pressing need, I just thought it was cool and maybe people should know about it. (sending the midi notes to abysnth's audio fx made for some cool pitch-tracking consistency of audio processing)

[Machinesworking]

Another issue here could be MIDI learn. If you're using the built in MIDI learn on Turnado that can cause issues.
As much as you can you want to use the MIDI learn in Live.

Using the Modulation wheel in a track without learning it in Live, you would get the expected behavior that the synth in front of Turnado would highjack the mod wheel, since the track MIDI In is going to be that synth, not Turnado. So yeah, if you don't do what Pitch Black is showing, then you have to make a track pointed and armed at Turnedo.

The ultimate solution IMO would be to Rack the two, then assign Macros to what you need to in the Rack. No separate track etc.

[KTlin]

Thanks guys for your input!
Unfortunately the MIDI mapping in Live, like Pitch Black recommended, is not what I was looking for. Of course I could do that and it would do the trick, but only partially, so this method doesn't solve my problem. For start, you cannot map velocity and aftertouch to certain parameters using this method.
Then think about plugins like MeldaProduction stuff with powerful MIDI modulation capabilities with a lot of in-depth settings, and you can also save all the midi modulation with each preset, which is great and super useful. But in order to use that I have to get the MIDI signal into the plugin.

[TomViolenz]

make a midi track, choose as midi-in your key board/controller, turn monitoring on, choose as midi-out the track your plug is on, as the sub routing your plug.

Should work now

[KTlin]

make a midi track, choose as midi-in your key board/controller, turn monitoring on, choose as midi-out the track your plug is on, as the sub routing your plug.
Should work now

It does work, and it also worked in Live 8, but I already mentioned this method in my first post: "In Live 8 I had to create another MIDI track and use it to send MIDI from the keyboard to the track containing the synth and the effect. So another track just for this!!! " It's a very cumbersome and inefficient method. I hoped Live 9 with M4L would offer a better alternative.
Thanks for your help, anyway!

[Machinesworking]

make a midi track, choose as midi-in your key board/controller, turn monitoring on, choose as midi-out the track your plug is on, as the sub routing your plug.
Should work now

It does work, and it also worked in Live 8, but I already mentioned this method in my first post: "In Live 8 I had to create another MIDI track and use it to send MIDI from the keyboard to the track containing the synth and the effect. So another track just for this!!! " It's a very cumbersome and inefficient method. I hoped Live 9 with M4L would offer a better alternative.
Thanks for your help, anyway!

You're basically complaining about a non issue.
Here's an example of another one related to MIDI, Ableton created the "external instrument" plug in that you can insert on a MIDI track because people demanded it. It does no good except to make an Audio and MIDI track into one track, in fact it has the same limitation that software instruments have around patch changes in that it can read them but not create them. So you get simplicity in execution, but that simplicity forces limitations. This isn't a Live issue BTW, every DAW I've used that has an external instrument plug cannot generate patch change messages on that track. The same holds true with sending MIDI that's tied to the tracks main instrument focus like aftertouch, every DAW I've used would need to use another MIDI track to do this.

If you really want velocity and aftertouch without another track in Live get an advanced controller like the Novation Remote line and assign those parameters to a knob and button as well as their original assignments, Live will pick up the MIDI CC numbers by using the knob and button etc. and you're good to go.

[KTlin]

You're basically complaining about a non issue.

Really?? Having to add a secondary track for every track which contains a VST effect that I want to control using MIDI, is a "non issue" to you?

Here's an example of another one related to MIDI, Ableton created the "external instrument" plug in that you can insert on a MIDI track because people demanded it. It does no good except to make an Audio and MIDI track into one track, in fact it has the same limitation that software instruments have around patch changes in that it can read them but not create them. So you get simplicity in execution, but that simplicity forces limitations.

I don't quite follow all that analogy with the external instrument plugin, but anyway...

This isn't a Live issue BTW, every DAW I've used that has an external instrument plug cannot generate patch change messages on that track. The same holds true with sending MIDI that's tied to the tracks main instrument focus like aftertouch, every DAW I've used would need to use another MIDI track to do this.

That means you didn't try Bitwig. All the MIDI data is transmitted to the effect devices that are placed after the synth so there's no need to create a secondary track.
The only reason I didn't switch to Bitwig yet, is that Halion crashes in it. The moment Halion works in Bitwig, it's bye bye Ableton.

If you really want velocity and aftertouch without another track in Live get an advanced controller like the Novation Remote line and assign those parameters to a knob and button as well as their original assignments, Live will pick up the MIDI CC numbers by using the knob and button etc. and you're good to go.

Spending at least 300$ to get a Novation Remote just to accomplish (not really actually) this MIDI routing thing in Ableton sounds to me like a very bad idea.

Anyway, thanks for your input.
Cheers

[Machinesworking]

This isn't a Live issue BTW, every DAW I've used that has an external instrument plug cannot generate patch change messages on that track. The same holds true with sending MIDI that's tied to the tracks main instrument focus like aftertouch, every DAW I've used would need to use another MIDI track to do this.

That means you didn't try Bitwig. All the MIDI data is transmitted to the effect devices that are placed after the synth so there's no need to create a secondary track.
The only reason I didn't switch to Bitwig yet, is that Halion crashes in it. The moment Halion works in Bitwig, it's bye bye Ableton.

Personally that sounds like a recipe for disaster, by all means if it means using Bitwig go for it. I'm not a fan of built in solutions to things that already have a solution. You don't follow the external instrument analogy because you haven't run into that problem. The solution is to not use it, and go back to using a separate audio and MIDI track for external instruments. It's more powerful than the 'solution' that Logic and Live etc. came up with, and I have no doubts that the same would hold true of Bigwigs solution, there are undoubtably MIDI routings that are going to be hindered by all plug ins on a track receiving all MIDI..

Anecdotal but I switched from Digital Performer to Logic because I thought the bugs in DP were deal killers, years later an update to Logic had massive issues with bugs. You won't solve all your problems with a 15+ year old DAW by moving to a DAW less than two years old. You will simply create new ones, like certain plug ins not working with it etc.

Not that I care that much what you do, your original problem is not a huge problem, and if you think having to add another MIDI track to your mixer to solve an issue is a deal killer then it's glaringly obvious you haven't used DAWs for very long. That's not a crime, but complaining about a problem, arguing the solutions people give, then talking about the competition is the mark of someone who isn't capable of getting advice from other people.