Ableton Forum

If you don't like reading long posts, I get it so don't bother even starting. . But I think this is a worthwhile read if you have a few minutes.

OK...I am probably one of the oldest cats on this site at a young 53. I have been playing guitar for 38 years and due to a severe accident that almost killed me and left me with a serious traumatic brain injury, my Drs wanted me to start using my brain again and asked if I had any hobbies which were yes: Guitar & Chess. So last year I picked up a classical guitar figuring that playing Bach is as challenging as it gets and I enjoy classical music. I do play guitar in many genres including blues, hard rock, funk, heavy metal, Motown and even EDM. So after playing over 2000 games of chess on chess.com and playing 100s of hours of classical guitar, something wonderful happened and the music bug bit me and it bit so hard that I stopped playing chess and started putting all my time into playing guitar. I had a previous home studio but sold all my gear and quit gigging in 2008. So I decided it was time and build a new home studio.

Long story short, I stumbled on Ableton's site by accident, saw it was a DAW, made for musicians for both recording and gigging, saw Push and I was sold. That was in February 2015 The thing is, I couldn't even spell MIDI and this was the hardest thing I ever tried to learn. I almost quit after 5 months. I didn't even go near arrangement view until a month ago so I could render a track and put it on SoundCloud.

My buddy and former drummer who is also my age told me that producing trance at my age is never going to happen because he said it's a kids game meaning most of you grew up with up with a computer in your hand, and have been at this since you were a kid. I still do not know how to sample a piece of music. And when I hear a trance track, I am so clueless as to how to produce any of the sounds most of you can do in your sleep.
So my buddy was 100% right. But listen to my very first track ever produced in Ableton. https://soundcloud.com/bobbyluvchild/freshsocks Everything was done live.

The rub is I didn't need to know any of the ninja secrets. Why? Because I am a musician and used my Guitars with a wireless MIDI pickup (Godin Session & Godin Montreal) to play and control the soft synths to write the bass and synth sounds. And for drums, I finger drummed the parts on Push. I did learn enough in Ableton to use session view to record straight analog guitar and of course record MIDI clips. I can even use Push to launch scenes and clips, finger drum, use sequencer for drums and everyday learning a little bit more. I Love Push. The only Ableton instrument I know is the drum rack and I know about 10% of it's capabilities. All I know is I get 16 yellow squares lit up on Push and also found the 64 pad settings which are cool. And I have 100s of kits to choose from.

So the Pros[/b] of playing an instrument in my situation anyway is it forces you to become very creative just using your instrument,the various soft synths and figuring out various structures of a song. I know what I like to hear so I am going to have to go about it in a different manner than most of you on this site who know how to create those drum riser effects and all the weird cool stuff that all the great producers know how to do. Plus I want to gig so this is where the fun will be for me. Because I know basic theory like scales, modes, arpeggios, keys structures,, inversions, cycles of 5ths etc makes creating EDM music so easy. If anyone payed close attention, my first track was nothing but a blues in A. So in a way, my music will be more unique due to my limitations. And I do not read music so anyone thinking about learning theory, do not think you have to learn how to read music. It doesn't hurt but 100% definitely is not needed. If you are young and starting out, I would recommemend learn how to play keys or guitar or bass

CONS

For me personally, I do not understand or have the mental capacity to sit in front of a screen and do the work which is required to master this software. I had ADHD before my brain injury. I also think that some of the very best EDM music was made my people who played the "computer" as their instrument and I consider them musicians even if they do not know theory. They learned by experimenting and created some of the biggest hits since the days of the late 1980's when I got turned on to this music.

For those of you wondering if you should learn an instrument or music theory, or both, even though I am new to this game, I would 100% say learning music theory will be very helpful and if you like music, why not learn to play keys, guitar or even bass? You will have the best of both worlds if you master Ableton and also become fluent on an instrument which could take you less than two years if you put an hour everyday into practicing. I personally love playing Push as well because to me it's a musical instrument because I can play the same melodies on Push that I can play on Guitar. Even though I know absolutely nothing about keyboards, I picked up the NI Kontrol 61 when they had the crossgrade sale so I know have Komplete Ultimate which I have not yet installed but when I do install it, I am going to learn to play keys keys and even cooler, I will be able to control any sample or instrument like Massive with my guitar, Push or the keyboard. I always have Push on, so if I am playing MIDI guitar, I am watching the notes appear on Push and can see the patterns I am playing.

Last point. There is also absolutely nothing wrong for those who like to write in MIDI. I learned to do that just I could understand how the piano roll works and was told that I needed to learn how to use a mouse an Ableton before I even try learning Push which was so very true. I can now edit notes I play, change velocities, grooves, etc. But that's my limit. So for those of you who enjoy writing in MIDI, you are a musician and your instrument is the computer so don't think learning another instrument is something you need to do if it does not interest you.

Bottom line. Have fun because life is short. I know because I was pronounced dead for over two minutes before God put a person at the scene of the accident who knew CPR and resuscitated me just in time when the paramedics showed up.

Long thread as promised. Completely due to my traumatic brain injury because I used to detest writing and I even started writing a book.

Love to hear feedback on my first track. Please leave a comment on SoundCloud if you like it and follow me.

PM me with any questions.

Peace

BobbyD

I'd say learn music theory that is relevant to the music you currently like. What I mean is that theory and musical technicality can sidetrack you if you let it. I knew quite a few guitarists back in the day who were into Jimi Hendrix, but they got sidetracked into complex jazz. Perhaps they thought if they mastered jazz theory, then they could be better than Jimi Hendrix. Instead, they just became boring and passionless.

Just understand that the DAW is a very complex instrument and the better you get at playing it the better your music will be.

Music theory is expandable for some styles and ways of producing and as Martin points out correctly, learning it takes a lot of time, time that may or may not be better spend learning/mastering other skills.

And regarding your self depreciating ageism: Bullshit!
If you tell yourself that just because you are over 50 you can't learn to sample or make Trance (I have no idea why you would want to though ), you are the only one holding yourself back.

And no, producing in a DAW is not something kids pick up nowadays without any effort. They have to expend the same effort as you. And many don't and simply resort to loop collections and construction kits.

EasyWorkflow wrote:
OK...I am probably one of the oldest cats on this site at a young 53.

Yea well at 65 I've got you beat...not that it matters. Had a mini-stroke a few years back that required me relearning a few things.

Regarding the 'learning' thing. I've always been of a mind that any time spent doing anything that furthers your craft is time well spent. It might be guitar noodling late at night, it might be learning a new technique in your DAW or even just thinking about what you want your artistic statement to be.

53...pffttt.

there is a difference between KNOWING music theory and APPLYING music theory... i could teach anyone that there are 7/8 notes in a scale... but what is a scale... how do you play a scale... which chords go with what scales... therefore... the key to KNOWING music theory to knowing how to APPLY music theory...

one can teach themselves music theory... just like one can teach themselves mathematics... but in most cases... one is better with a teacher... someone to teach them how to practice music theory...

^ That's right.

I always tell my students that you don't read a music theory book while putting your feet up in front of a cozy fire while drinking red wine.

You need to be at an instrument getting your hands dirty and HEARING the concepts that are in the book, connecting concepts to sounds.

Goes the other way too. Listen to music and try to hear what is going on and how it confirms or perhaps subverts expectations based on what you've learned of the theory.

studiologic wrote:one can teach themselves music theory... just like one can teach themselves mathematics... but in most cases... one is better with a teacher... someone to teach them how to practice music theory...

And someone could use a calculator for most of their math problems… and somebody could also use a scale/chord plugin that passes for music theory in practice.

beats me wrote:

studiologic wrote:one can teach themselves music theory... just like one can teach themselves mathematics... but in most cases... one is better with a teacher... someone to teach them how to practice music theory...

And someone could use a calculator for most of their math problems… and somebody could also use a scale/chord plugin that passes for music theory in practice.

Reducing musical creation to the equivalent of calculating a budget or gathering statistics.

I approve beats!

beats me wrote:

studiologic wrote:one can teach themselves music theory... just like one can teach themselves mathematics... but in most cases... one is better with a teacher... someone to teach them how to practice music theory...

And someone could use a calculator for most of their math problems… and somebody could also use a scale/chord plugin that passes for music theory in practice.

If you think theory means staying in one key for all your songs then yeah the scale tool, but what happens when you realize the song could use a key change? Then there's accidentals... Or to really sink it in, the majority of us have unfinished songs, because the limitations of our knowledge can sometimes be a hinderance rather than a way to get focus.

IMO theory is a tool box, a lot of carpenters can go whole days using only a hammer for sure, but why knock the other tools?

stringtapper wrote:

beats me wrote:

studiologic wrote:one can teach themselves music theory... just like one can teach themselves mathematics... but in most cases... one is better with a teacher... someone to teach them how to practice music theory...

And someone could use a calculator for most of their math problems… and somebody could also use a scale/chord plugin that passes for music theory in practice.

Reducing musical creation to the equivalent of calculating a budget or gathering statistics.

I approve beats!

You are the last person on here I would expect to approve of that reality.

But I could also see you pointing some people to these “music theory” plugins when its determined their interest in theory is less than genuine, like after 10 minutes of practicing scales they would go “Not fun or productive, fuck this!”

Machinesworking wrote:

beats me wrote:

studiologic wrote:one can teach themselves music theory... just like one can teach themselves mathematics... but in most cases... one is better with a teacher... someone to teach them how to practice music theory...

And someone could use a calculator for most of their math problems… and somebody could also use a scale/chord plugin that passes for music theory in practice.

If you think theory means staying in one key for all your songs then yeah the scale tool, but what happens when you realize the song could use a key change? Then there's accidentals... Or to really sink it in, the majority of us have unfinished songs, because the limitations of our knowledge can sometimes be a hinderance rather than a way to get focus.

IMO theory is a tool box, a lot of carpenters can go whole days using only a hammer for sure, but why knock the other tools?

I’m on the fence with these plugins. Like you said, there is more to it than staying perfectly in key the whole time and at least one study concluded that songs people are really drawn to aren’t predictable in key among other elements. But (for me) if I wanted to dabble in Blues or some Asian style a key plugin would probably serve me well because I’m not going to bother studying or learning it thoroughly because it’s not going to be a major focus for all of my music.

beats me wrote:You are the last person on here I would expect to approve of that reality.

It was tongue in cheek. I "approve" inasmuch as such an outlook is something like musical nihilism.

beats me wrote:But I could also see you pointing some people to these “music theory” plugins when its determined their interest in theory is less than genuine, like after 10 minutes of practicing scales they would go “Not fun or productive, fuck this!”

Exactly.

"Fuck it! Break out the Scale device!"

doghouse wrote:There are no cons to learning music.

Sure there are. This guy for example:

To make my point about basic music theory, I was listening to a track by Gaia and they were going through the cycle of 5ths. They clearly understood that simple music concept. They still have to master Ableton and all the different sonic possibilities, but from a song structure point of view, they used a basic concept. And to my friend who is 65, God Bless you bro. That really inspired me. Stay healthy my man.