'External Instrument' Device Bug?

[aspsa]

I read all the posts I could find in this forum and other forums regarding Kontakt 5's (K5's) multiple output setup. Being my question pertains to using K5 within Ableton Live 9, I also read both the K5 "Outputs in Host Mode" section and Live's "External Instrument" section. Let's begin with a specific scenario, which is to align the K5 Studio Drummer library's various kit components with Ableton Live 9 tracks.

First, here is what I perceive to be a quirk with K5, although I welcome any corrections to the following statement. From K5's manual:

"The maximum number of (mono) audio channels that you can assign in host mode is limited to 32 for the VST version of KONTAKT, and 16 for the AU and RTAS versions. The VST plug-in is special in that it comes in 3 different flavors with 8, 16 or 32 outputs."

I see three K5 VST plug-ins available from within my Live 9 setup: "Kontakt 5", "Kontakt 5 8out" and "Kontakt 5 16out". Obviously, these correspond to the aforementioned three VST K5 "flavors". Based upon this quote, here is what I expect K5 to make available to me:

K5 version - upwards of 32 audio channels in any mono/stereo/multichannel combination
K5 8out version - upwards of 8 audio channels in any mono/stereo/multichannel combination
K5 16out version - upwards of 16 audio channels in any mono/stereo/multichannel combination

In fact, here is what K5 makes available to me:

K5 version - upwards of 64 audio channels in any mono/stereo/multichannel combination
K5 8out version - upwards of 8 audio channels in any mono/stereo/multichannel combination
K5 16out version - upwards of 16 audio channels in any mono/stereo/multichannel combination

I know this to be the case, because I am allotted the following output values when I attempt to assign a K5 output to a physical output:

Kt. st. 1(1)
Kt. st. 1(2) The default stereo pair for the K5 main outputs.
Kt. aux 1(1)
Kt. aux 1(2)
Kt. aux 2(1)
Kt. aux 2(2)
Kt. aux 3(1)
Kt. aux 3(2)
Kt. aux 4(1)
Kt. aux 4(2) The four default stereo pairs of auxiliary outputs.
Kt. unassigned(1)
.
.
.
Kt. unassigned(54) A pool of fifty-four available monophonic audio channels.

The five pairs of default stereo pairs (st, aux 1/2/3/4) are allocated ten audio channels. Add that to the remaining fifty-four unallocated audio channels, and we have a total of sixty-four audio channels.

I have a K5 output preset configured for the Studio Drummer library's various kit components and mic configurations. Also, I saved a version of the K5 Studio Drummer instrument with the mixer section assignments configured for the K5 output preset configuration. After adding the K5 VST (not the K5 8out or K5 16out VSTs) to a Live track, I did the following:

1. Loaded the K5 output preset configuration for Studio Drummer.
2. Loaded the alternate version of the Studio Drummer instrument with the mixer channels mapped to the K5 output configuration I created for Studio Drummer.

I was able to map the various Studio Drummer kit component and mic configuration channels to the K5 physical output audio channels of my choosing, and I had plenty of K5 VST unallocated audio channels remaining. More specifically, I used the following K5 VST audio channel physical outputs for Studio Drummer:

Stereo 1 Two audio channels
Aux 1/2/3/4 Eight audio channels
Unassigned 1-12 Twelve audio channels

In total I used twenty-two audio channels; forty-two of the sixty-four audio channels remained unallocated.

The problem I experienced relates to Live 9's External Instrument device. In a Live 9 set, I created a group containing tracks for the various Studio Drummer kit components and mic configurations, but I opted not to include the four pairs of stereo aux channels. As we all know, Live 9 only allows for stereo tracks; Live 9 cannot instantiate monophonic tracks. However, for the purpose of this post, this fact is irrelevant.

The first track within the Live 9 sub group includes the K5 VST plug-in, and by default receives output for the main K5 outputs (i.e., Stereo 1). The remaining tracks in the subgroup relate back to the various Studio Drummer mixer channels, which receive input from the several Studio Drummer kit components and mic configurations.

In order for the Studio Drummer subgroup tracks to receive Studio Drummer sounds routed through the K5 output configuration, I added a Live 9 'External Instrument' device to every subgroup track with then exception of the first subgroup track having the K5 VST plug-in. Getting every other subgroup track to receive audio from the K5 outputs is straightforward. However, I came across a problem that I am unable to resolve. The 'Audio From' dropdown list within the 'External Instrument' device chops off the last audio channel that should be available for assignment, and I have no idea why this is the case.

Here is what I see in the 'Audio From' list:

Kt. aux 1/-Kontakt 5
Kt. aux 2/-Kontakt 5
Kt. aux 3/-Kontakt 5
Kt. aux 4/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (1)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (2)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (3)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (4)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (5)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (6)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (7)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (8)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (9)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (10)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (11)/-Kontakt 5

Here is what I SHOULD see:

Kt. aux 1/-Kontakt 5
Kt. aux 2/-Kontakt 5
Kt. aux 3/-Kontakt 5
Kt. aux 4/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (1)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (2)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (3)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (4)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (5)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (6)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (7)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (8)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (9)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (10)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (11)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (12)/-Kontakt 5 *** This is missing from what I ACTUALLY see. ***

Is this behavior the result of an 'External Instrument' device bug?

[aspsa]

Based upon guidance from a Native Instrument forum member, I tested another Kontakt 5 (K5) output configuration. This time, per the guidance, I saved the revised configuration as a default for VST plug-in. As are result, here are the outputs that the Live 9 External Instrument 'Audio From' list exposed:

Kt. st/2-Kontakt
Kt. st/3-Kontakt
Kt. st4/-Kontakt
Kt. st/5-Kontakt
Kt. st/6-Kontakt
Kt. st/7-Kontakt
Kt. st/8-Kontakt
Kt. st/9-Kontakt
Kt. st/10-Kontakt
Kt. st/11-Kontakt
Kt. st/12-Kontakt
Kt. st/13-Kontakt
Kt. st/14-Kontakt
Kt. st/15-Kontakt
Kt. st/16-Kontakt

With K5's master output automatically assigned to the first stereo pair of audio channels, this reveals that the External Instrument 'sees' 15 additional stereo pairs of audio channels, and it suggests one of the following:

- Ableton Live 9 can only 'see' a maximum of 32 audio channels for a VST plug-in. (Since Ableton Live 9 currently does not support VST3, I don't know if would support 64 audio channels with a VST3 capability.)
- Ableton Live 9's External Instrument only reveals a maximum of 32 audio channels in its 'Audio From' list.

I tried a couple of other configurations, each time saving the configuration as the default for VST plug-in.

Configuration - Default
A single stereo pair of audio channels
4 stereo pairs of audio channels for the 4 auxiliary outputs (The 4 Aux outs are unavoidable in K5)

Here is what is revealed by Ableton Live 9's External Instrument:

Kt. aux 1/-Kontakt 5
Kt. aux 2/-Kontakt 5
Kt. aux 3/-Kontakt 5
Kt. aux 4/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (1)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (2)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (3)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (4)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (5)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (6)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (7)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (8)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (9)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (10)/-Kontakt 5
Kt. unassigned (11)/-Kontakt 5

Assuming each entry in the External Instrument 'Audio From' list represents a stereo pair of audio channels, we once again have a total of 16 pairs of stereo audio channels (i.e., 32 audio channels). The first pair is output to the Live 9 track within which the K5 VST plug-in is contained, and External Instrument exposes the remaining 15 stereo pairs of audio channels.

Configuration - Studio Drummer Full Mixer Channel Assignment
Note: This configuration is different than the one I originally posted, since I forgot that the Studio Drummer K5 instrument includes a 'BUSES' section in its mixer panel. The 'BUSES' section has a stereo 'REVERB' channel and a stereo 'MASTER' channel. The 'REVERB' channel automatically routes to the 'MASTER' channel. It is this 'MASTER' channel that is then assigned to the K5 instrument's default first pair of stereo audio channels. In consideration of this fact, I needed to included an additional pair of stereo audio channels in this K5 output configuration.

After saving this as the default VST configuration, I started fresh within a new K5 instance, and I added an External Instrument device to another Live 9 track, with the 'MIDI To' settings appropriately set for the Live 9 track holding the K5 instance. Here is what External Instrument's 'Audio From' list revealed:

Kt. OH-St/-Kontakt 5
Kt. Room/-Kontakt 5
Kt. OH-M/-Kontakt 5
Kt. Kick/-Kontakt 5
Kt. Snare/-Kontakt 5
Kt. Hi Hat/-Kontakt 5
Kt. Tom 1/-Kontakt 5
Kt. Tom 2/-Kontakt 5
Kt. Tom 3/-Kontakt 5
Kt. Tom 4/-Kontakt 5
Kt. Tamb/-Kontakt 5
Kt. Wd Bl/-Kontakt 5
Kt. aux 1/-Kontakt 5
Kt. aux 2/-Kontakt 5
Kt. aux 3/-Kontakt 5

By the way, the actual K5 audio channel names appeared this time, because I saved the K5 output configuration as a default for VST plugin. However, I now realize that this level of naming specificity is not a good idea, since the names would be matched in External Instrument's 'Audio From' list for any VST plug-in instance. So, with another K5 multitimbral, multi-output having an entirely set of output channel names, these names would not appear in the External Instrument's 'Audio From' list unless one were to save the K5 output configuration as a default for VST plug-in. If your Live 9 projects includes two or more K5 instances, each with a different K5 instrument, then External Instrument's 'Audio From' list would have names matching only those for the default VST plug-in. Assuming one of the K5 instances is based upon a naming convention suitable for a specific instrument, and assuming this configuration were set as the default for VST plug-in, the names exposed in the External Instrument's 'Audio From' list would be only relevant to one of the K5 instances.

I wish there was a way for a Live 9 External Instrument to dynamically populate its 'Audio From' list from an instance, in this case, of a K5 instance's output configuration, rather than what it apparently does, which it seems is to populate the 'Audio From' list from a VST plug-in type. I'm not sure what goes on behind the scenes, but this 'Audio From' list population strategy appears to populate its values from class members versus instance members in an Object-Oriented model. Maybe I'll post this to the Live forum.

Getting back on track, my expectation was for the External Instrument 'Audio From' list to reveal the following. Note: I prefixed each list name with the number of channels it requires only to illustrate the audio channel count. The 'Audio From' list items do not include these prefixes.

[Stereo, 2 audio channels] Kt. OH-St/-Kontakt 5
[Stereo, 2 audio channels] Kt. Room/-Kontakt 5
[Mono, 1 audio channel] Kt. OH-M/-Kontakt 5
[Mono, 1 audio channel] Kt. Kick/-Kontakt 5
[Mono, 1 audio channel] Kt. Snare/-Kontakt 5
[Mono, 1 audio channel] Kt. Hi Hat/-Kontakt 5
[Mono, 1 audio channel] Kt. Tom 1/-Kontakt 5
[Mono, 1 audio channel] Kt. Tom 2/-Kontakt 5
[Mono, 1 audio channel] Kt. Tom 3/-Kontakt 5
[Mono, 1 audio channel] Kt. Tom 4/-Kontakt 5
[Mono, 1 audio channel] Kt. Tamb/-Kontakt 5
[Mono, 1 audio channel] Kt. Wd Bl/-Kontakt 5
[Stereo, 2 audio channels] Kt. aux 1/-Kontakt 5
[Stereo, 2 audio channels] Kt. aux 2/-Kontakt 5
[Stereo, 2 audio channels] Kt. aux 3/-Kontakt 5
[Stereo, 2 audio channels] Kt. aux 4/-Kontakt 5 *** This is missing from what I ACTUALLY see. ***

Once again, External Instrument chops off two audio channels from its list. K5's output configuration is for 24 audio channels in a combination of mono and stereo tracks. Instead, External Instrument only exposes 20 of the 22 audio channels. Recall, two other audio channels are always assigned to the K5 instrument's main output, and this stereo pair never appears in External Instrument's 'Audio From' list. In this last configuration, I only required a total of 24 of 32 audio channels, assuming External Instrument and/or Live 9 in general only supports up to 32 audio channels for a VST plug-in. However, in this mono/stereo configuration, combined with K5's main stereo output, only 22 of the 24 audio channels required for this configuration were exposed.

At this point, I assume External Instrument has a bug. Also, it seems that Live 9 is only capable of exposing 32 audio channels in total at the maximum for a VST plug-in.

[john "leborgne"]

Hello,

Is there a technical reason for this limitation on the 16 sterio output ?
Last version of Ableton have still this problem.

And why Ableton can't manage the IO configuration change in Kontakt5 without setting this one as the default one for the VST Plug-in ?

Not very happy with this and nothing seems to change