Overlapping MIDI Controls

[Heat Death]

I'm on Ableton Live 8.

Check out this overlapping mapping issue (click on the image to further enlarge it): http://picpaste.com/insane_mapping_issue.png

Different controllers are mapping different features on Ableton, but it appears that a dial on one controller has the same CC number as a slider on another controller.

Therefore, whatever l mapped the slider on the other controller to, that feature ends up getting MIDI controlled at the same time as whatever feature was MIDI controlled by the dial on the first controller.

Example: CC50, CC52, etc.

they are each registered twice, for 2 different controllers. Thus, each controller controls the feature mapped to it under that dial, but ALSO controls the feature mapped to that CC number by the other controller.

Result: I turn the Send B volume dial, and simultaneously slide the crossfader. WOW Ableton, WOW. No other DAW has ever done this. Only Ableton. The one DAW you'd expect to be right at home with MIDI controllers.



Is there a quick fix?

[Tarekith]

If both midi controllers are transmitting on the same midi channel, this will happen no matter what DAW you use. Can you change the MIDI channel of one of your controllers?

[S4racen]

If they don't have an editor to allow what Tarekith is selecting then something like BOMES MIDI Translator will do the trick...

Cheers
D

[Heat Death]

If both midi controllers are transmitting on the same midi channel, this will happen no matter what DAW you use. Can you change the MIDI channel of one of your controllers?

Hi there,

I can confirm that this does not happen with Propellerheads Reason, and as far as l'm aware, nor with Reaper etc. Nor can l change MIDI channel, neither via Ableton nor via the Akai MIDI Mix editor, which absolutely does not edit anything, l mean you can edit the display of the controls in the Akai MIDI Mix editor, but you cannot import nor export the controls. From web searches, l'm not even sure changing MIDI channel will help this Ableton issue. But l'd still like to try.



In Reason, you can also change controller from USB to USB, and it will recognise it by the label you've given it. So, even though the "USB port label" (my coinage) changes from midimix8 to midimix6, all you need to do if you've changed the USB port is:

- Go to audio devices
- Search for the controller you labelled "Akai MIDIMix A"
- Re-recognise it by twisting a dial or whatever
- Et voila, even though it's new "USB port label" has changed from midmix8 to midmix6 or whatever, all controls that were mapped to "Akai MIDIMix A" are now, once again, mapped to that controller.


My point is, Reason does it intuitively, and more to the point, although Reason 6.5 (the version that l'm on, the current version is Version 9) doesn't give you a control map list like Ableton does (as per my screenshot), at least you know which controller is which, out of a mass of 10 or so controllers, some of the identical, when you change USB port. But even more to the point, Ableton has that MIDI control list whereas Reason doesn't, but Ableton even screws that up by not saying which controls are mapped to which controller. At least, it doesn't say that with Ableton v. 8.

Still, all this is an asides. Ableton causes controllers to overlap. Omg omg. Other DAWs do not do this. Moreover, Ableton, as mentioned, doesn't let you know which controller maps which controls, in its MIDI control list. And finally, Ableton can't be MIDI controlled while it's a ReWire slave - when other DAWs can (e.g. Reason).

I've had many horrible surprises from all the DAWs l've worked with while trying to make a live music rig. The greatest surprises l've had when trying to set up my live rig have so far come from Ableton, the one DAW dedicated to live working.

Conclusion: you want live music, then go play a guitar or a jaw harp. Computers can be used for live music but that would be TOO easy so they don't LET you.

[Heat Death]

If they don't have an editor to allow what Tarekith is selecting then something like BOMES MIDI Translator will do the trick...

Cheers
D

Thanks. But l cannot afford anything like that, and l don't see why l should be adding even more kit to my rig. This issue should not be happening to begin with.

[Heat Death]

You know, l actually finally managed to alter the MIDI channel on my Akai MIDIMix via the Akai MIDIMix editor software provided by the manufacturer. I managed to set it to MIDI channel 2. And yep, it worked, no more MIDI controller overlap.

BUT WAIT. Still problems: an Ableton device e.g. the Sampler, cannot map to multiple MIDI channels. So all the mappings for specific devices that l had distributed across my various controllers, are now useless they all have a little bit of the Akai MIDIMix that is now on MIDI channel 2, the rest of the controls being mapped to devices on MIDI channel 1.

With Ableton: Damned if you change MIDI channel, damned if you don't.

Always a problem with Ableton, it doesn't want to work with controllers.

Also, when you add a new controller, you have to restart Ableton each time. So, any accidents on stage, audience must wait while you fiddle with mouse.

This is actually a good thing because audience can check their txt messages etc. while they wait, and also, you can sneakily work on a spreadsheet for your main job, whatever that is, while the audience are checking their txts, because it will all look like you're doing office work to the audience so l'm sure they won't notice that you're doing actual office work.

Well done Ableton, you've got this whole "Live" thing cornered

[fishmonkey]

If both midi controllers are transmitting on the same midi channel, this will happen no matter what DAW you use. Can you change the MIDI channel of one of your controllers?

Nor can l change MIDI channel, neither via Ableton nor via the Akai MIDI Mix editor, which absolutely does not edit anything, l mean you can edit the display of the controls in the Akai MIDI Mix editor, but you cannot import nor export the controls. From web searches, l'm not even sure changing MIDI channel will help this Ableton issue. But l'd still like to try.

the Akai site is currently down, but the Sound on Sound review says that you can change the MIDI channels:

http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/akai-midimix

btw, i dunno why you are ranting at Ableton. it's not their fault if you don't yet know how things work.

[Heat Death]

the Akai site is currently down, but the Sound on Sound review says that you can change the MIDI channels:

http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/akai-midimix

btw, i dunno why you are ranting at Ableton. it's not their fault if you don't yet know how things work.

Don't twist what l'm saying. Please read my posts, then you will see that l've already covered / explained all these things. There is a massive problem with using controllers with Ableton - fact.

Meeerry Christmas to you and your kin and the entire Ableton team, and everybody that has offered help on this thread.

[fishmonkey]

the Akai site is currently down, but the Sound on Sound review says that you can change the MIDI channels:

http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/akai-midimix

btw, i dunno why you are ranting at Ableton. it's not their fault if you don't yet know how things work.

Don't twist what l'm saying. Please read my posts, then you will see that l've already covered / explained all these things. There is a massive problem with using controllers with Ableton - fact.

Meeerry Christmas to you and your kin and the entire Ableton team, and everybody that has offered help on this thread.

i'm not twisting what you've said. you didn't know that changing the MIDI channels would help, and you didn't know that you could do that with your controller. because you didn't know those things, you mapped things in an unhelpful way in Live. then you complained that Live didn't automagically fix your mappings for you.

[Heat Death]

i'm not twisting what you've said. you didn't know that changing the MIDI channels would help, and you didn't know that you could do that with your controller. because you didn't know those things, you mapped things in an unhelpful way in Live. then you complained that Live didn't automagically fix your mappings for you.

You clearly are refusing to read most of what l've written and are thus wilfully misrepresenting my words.

I said that l'm not sure if changing MIDI channel would help, judging by comments of others who've had this issue through the years. I said that l'd like to give it a go. I also said that it shouldn't even be coming to that because other DAWs just do it without further work, and Ableton, being predicated on live situations, i.e. controllerism, should be on that same level.

I also said that l tried the Akai MIDIMix editor, but couldn't get it to work.

I also said that l then managed to get it to work, but new issues cropped up.

I'll keep those new issues as a surprise for you, for when you've actually read my posts, because the new issues are, like everything else pointed out here, already in the posts l made before you commented.

Unless you are able to offer technical help that l haven't explicitly already said l'd tried, l shall not reply to your comments anymore because you're wasting my time, because you don't know what you're talking about.

[yur2die4]

In Live 9 you do not have to restart Live in order to see removed and added midi devices.

I might be wrong but they may have even added that around 8.5. I wouldn't jump the gun updating to a later 8.x unless you can verify this for sure. But Live 9 definitely has that issue resolved.

As for requiring alternate midi channels, yeah it is messy. Sorry I have no additional tips with that.

For mapping 'across devices', there are forms of 'blue hand control'. You can instantly control any device that is selected. It is limited in the order or assignment of things (it is editable but not in an easy way), and you still end up with repeated controls on controllers except a small bonus is the ability to 'lock' individual controllers to a device in Live temporarily.

With clever use of embedding stuff into Racks and head-scratching midi management it works out for some folks.

One last element that you can take advantage of (mostly good for vst instruments, not fx) is that many vst instruments allow midi assignment from within the vst. This is different from midi assignment in Live. It behaves in a different way. It is possibly one of the better ways to do midi control of instruments from channel to channel, as long as you can make sure you do not have more than one armed at any given point and are not trying to control more than one at a time.

[Heat Death]

...

Thanks for your reply buddy, see below:

You know, l actually finally managed to alter the MIDI channel on my Akai MIDIMix via the Akai MIDIMix editor software provided by the manufacturer. I managed to set it to MIDI channel 2. And yep, it worked, no more MIDI controller overlap.

BUT WAIT. Still problems: an Ableton device e.g. the Sampler, cannot map to multiple MIDI channels. So all the mappings for specific devices that l had distributed across my various controllers, are now useless they all have a little bit of the Akai MIDIMix that is now on MIDI channel 2, the rest of the controls being mapped to devices on MIDI channel 1.

With Ableton: Damned if you change MIDI channel, damned if you don't.

WAIT WAIT.

I've just realised what this latest problem in my MIDI controller saga was: It's the USB port l was using for my USB hub. It requires that l unplug whatever goes into the USB port (i.e. the USB hub that currently goes into it) and then plug it back in, whenever l start up my computer. I hadn't done it that time, so therefore l was seeing only the controllers that were plugged into other USB ports of my computer. [Un]fortunately, the controller (Akai MIDIMix) whose MIDI channel had changed from "1" to "2", was plugged directly into my computer, on another USB port, so it worked right away.

Therefore, what l ended up seeing was the other controller ("EasyControl") was on the Ableton menu, and activated, but unable to control the Ableton sampler, which was partly controlled by the Akai MIDIMix on MIDI channel 2.

IN FACT, what l was seeing was the 2 of my 4 EasyControl controllers that were actually directly plugged into my PC, but were NOT mapped to Ableton to begin with. Hence turning dials on those controllers "no longer" had an effect on Ableton (because they were never mapped to Ableton to begin with), ever since l had changed the Akai MIDIMix's MIDI channel to "2".

SOLUTION: Unplug the USB hub that had the EasyControl which is used by Ableton plugged into it, then plug the USB hub back into my PC. Now l can see the correct EasyControl on the Ableton MIDI controller menu (l dearly wish l can give my controllers permanent names regardless of the USB port, as per Propellerheads Reason and l suspect a lot of other DAWs).

And yes, l can share my Ableton sampler device between the Akai MIDIMix (whether it's on MIDI channel "1" as in the past, or "2" as it is now) and the EasyControl.

WOOT.

I believe my problems are now solved. Except Ableton really needs to handle controllers better. Thank you.

[fishmonkey]

if a USB device does not have a unique USB serial number, Windows will assume it is a completely new device if you plug it into a different USB port.

to avoid problems with this, it is a good idea to keep track of which ports you are using (OS X does not have this problem)...