Where is optimizaton?

[romixfly]

Recently purchased Serum 2 but noticed that in Ableton this synthesizer loads the project quite heavily. Decided to see and compare whether it is the same in other DAWs. And I was very upset! In Reaper Serum 2 works so much better that I have a question. How can a DAW that is considered one of the most expensive show such terrible optimization results… You know, if this difference was insignificant, I would not write.
But I thought it was all about the synthesizer. That it is not optimized yet. But it turns out the problem is in the optimization of Ableton Live? Developers, well, this is a really big problem for your DAW. I did not expect to see such a difference! I am very upset, apparently it is time to study other DAWs…

[doghouse]

What’s your computer?

Nowadays most of us have computers with multiple CPU cores. How a DAW chooses which cores to use and how threads are allocated is different. Even plugins that have switches for single and multi core operation may not treat the multiple cores the same.

For instance on M1-M4 Macs, there are both “performance” cores and “efficiency” cores. Some DAWs will only use performance cores, others will use both as needed. Some users who have a DAW that only uses performance cores get upset when they check CPU load and see only half the cores are being used.

BTW, this is not just an issue with DAWs, it can apply to any application depending on how it was coded.

[romixfly]

What’s your computer?

Nowadays most of us have computers with multiple CPU cores. How a DAW chooses which cores to use and how threads are allocated is different. Even plugins that have switches for single and multi core operation may not treat the multiple cores the same.

For instance on M1-M4 Macs, there are both “performance” cores and “efficiency” cores. Some DAWs will only use performance cores, others will use both as needed. Some users who have a DAW that only uses performance cores get upset when they check CPU load and see only half the cores are being used.

BTW, this is not just an issue with DAWs, it can apply to any application depending on how it was coded.

Intel i7 8086K 4.0Ghz/32GB RAM Reaper with Serum 2, works much better than Ableton 12.1.11. Used the same not the lightest preset. And with settings 48000KHz/24bit 256 buffer size. I felt very different load.

[pottering]

Reaper has a pre-rendering system, it doesn't use less CPU but rather it spreads CPU usage over time.

Pre-rendering is only possible with sequenced or already-recorded MIDI in a linear sequencer, it doesn't work with MIDI notes played real-time or with MIDI played non-linearly in a system like Live's Session View (doesn't work with generative M4L MIDI generators either, anything that generates or changes notes real-time), hence it is not a usable optimization for Ableton Live (which was made for live usage, as it is well known).

[Machinesworking]

Reaper has a pre-rendering system, it doesn't use less CPU but rather it spreads CPU usage over time.

Pre-rendering is only possible with sequenced or already-recorded MIDI in a linear sequencer, it doesn't work with MIDI notes played real-time or with MIDI played non-linearly in a system like Live's Session View (doesn't work with generative M4L MIDI generators either, anything that generates or changes notes real-time), hence it is not a usable optimization for Ableton Live (which was made for live usage, as it is well known).

This, with the new Apple Silicon chips Live comes closer than ever to Logic, but DAWs like Reaper and Digital Performer use all cores, whether efficiency or performance. With Intel chips it's still a significant difference Live has always gotten 65-75% of what Reaper, DP, Cubase etc. can get because of pre rendering and now also the use of efficiency core by those DAWs likely to carry pre rendered tracks.

My tests on Apple Silicon still show a difference with Reaper. 140 tracks of Diva in Reaper (same with DP), VS 96 in Live.

You don't buy Live, or Bitwig for max track count, you buy it for stability when using the interface, other DAWs glitch out when you add an instrument track with the sequence running etc. etc.

[romixfly]

Reaper has a pre-rendering system, it doesn't use less CPU but rather it spreads CPU usage over time.

Pre-rendering is only possible with sequenced or already-recorded MIDI in a linear sequencer, it doesn't work with MIDI notes played real-time or with MIDI played non-linearly in a system like Live's Session View (doesn't work with generative M4L MIDI generators either, anything that generates or changes notes real-time), hence it is not a usable optimization for Ableton Live (which was made for live usage, as it is well known).

This, with the new Apple Silicon chips Live comes closer than ever to Logic, but DAWs like Reaper and Digital Performer use all cores, whether efficiency or performance. With Intel chips it's still a significant difference Live has always gotten 65-75% of what Reaper, DP, Cubase etc. can get because of pre rendering and now also the use of efficiency core by those DAWs likely to carry pre rendered tracks.

My tests on Apple Silicon still show a difference with Reaper. 140 tracks of Diva in Reaper (same with DP), VS 96 in Live.

You don't buy Live, or Bitwig for max track count, you buy it for stability when using the interface, other DAWs glitch out when you add an instrument track with the sequence running etc. etc.

This is all sad. I hope the optimization will be better in the future. At least approximately on par with other DAWs.

[Machinesworking]

Reaper has a pre-rendering system, it doesn't use less CPU but rather it spreads CPU usage over time.

Pre-rendering is only possible with sequenced or already-recorded MIDI in a linear sequencer, it doesn't work with MIDI notes played real-time or with MIDI played non-linearly in a system like Live's Session View (doesn't work with generative M4L MIDI generators either, anything that generates or changes notes real-time), hence it is not a usable optimization for Ableton Live (which was made for live usage, as it is well known).

This, with the new Apple Silicon chips Live comes closer than ever to Logic, but DAWs like Reaper and Digital Performer use all cores, whether efficiency or performance. With Intel chips it's still a significant difference Live has always gotten 65-75% of what Reaper, DP, Cubase etc. can get because of pre rendering and now also the use of efficiency core by those DAWs likely to carry pre rendered tracks.

My tests on Apple Silicon still show a difference with Reaper. 140 tracks of Diva in Reaper (same with DP), VS 96 in Live.

You don't buy Live, or Bitwig for max track count, you buy it for stability when using the interface, other DAWs glitch out when you add an instrument track with the sequence running etc. etc.

This is all sad. I hope the optimization will be better in the future. At least approximately on par with other DAWs.

It will not be, and no other DAW will be as bullet proof when you're doing things like adding an instrument to a track while the CPU is at even 50%.

To be fair here, this gap is closing with Arm chips, which do not seem to see as much benefit from pre rendering as Intel chips do, I'm certain the results will look the same on Windows Arm.

Here's some numbers on Arm chips and likely any chip that uses performance and efficiency cores (some Intel chips do this as well), remember Logic should be waaaay ahead of Live because it does pre rendering (or a separate buffer for unarmed tracks), but it's not that far ahead.

DAW, then track count, then whether it uses efficiency or lower power cores with plugins etc (yes/no).
These are specific to my machine, but you can see the results of different tech being used.

Live - 96 - no
Logic- 106 - no
Digital Performer- 140 - yes
Reaper- 140 - yes

Here's the deal though, at say 92 tracks in Live and 125 in Reaper, if you add in a reverb on a track or get brave and add in a VSTi you will get glitches galore in Reaper, it could cause a freeze, etc. You have to stop the playback, add in the track then start etc. or at least that's the safe thing to do. Live will just handle it, it might happe a bit slower at 92 tracks, but it will happen, and it's likely not to glitch the audio while it does so.

Live was literally a looping audio with audio FX tool for the first 3 versions, it wasn't until v4 that Live got virtual instrument hosting, it's now everyones favorite electronic music composing tool, but it was designed to not glitch or stop playback in a performance situation. It's been a constant in these forums that people complain about this, but reality is Live and to a degree Bitwig etc. decided performance was more important than track count. It's why you don't see articulation mapping for orchestral instruments in Live like you do in Cubase, DP, Logic, even Reaper has a script, because their non real time engines allow for hundreds of tracks on modern computers, and orchestral types use those DAWs. They're not as much fun to use for electronic music though, and electronic music rarely needs more than 70 tracks.