Convolution Reverb: no way to relocate missing IR

[Golitan]

Hi there,

I don't think this behavior is specific to the Convolution Reverb device, but here is the repro:
1. Load up a custom IR in the Convolution Reverb from disk
2. Save the project and close it
3. Move or delete the IR file from disk
4. Reopen the project
5. Observe that the device is now suddenly using a default IR

In my opinion, this is a major issue. This means that if the path of an IR file changes, a project using it may suddenly sound completely different, and the user won't be able to tell why. This happened to me when changing PC and I can no longer make some old projects sound like the released version as I don't remember which IRs from my huge library were used.

I believe Ableton should be able to report it like any other missing audio assets.

[chapelier fou]

And if you collect & save the set ?

[Rivanni]

The user would know why because they intentionally deleted it.
If you delete a sample that is used in a clip, Simpler or anywhrrr else in Live, and you delete is, the project also sound different.
Don't delete what you need.

[Golitan]

And if you collect & save the set ?

This works, but I think it emphasizes even more the issue I'm trying to point. If Ableton is able to Collect & Save and therefore detect media used by M4L devices, it should also be able to report it to the user if it's ever missing, like any other media.

[Golitan]

The user would know why because they intentionally deleted it.
If you delete a sample that is used in a clip, Simpler or anywhrrr else in Live, and you delete is, the project also sound different.
Don't delete what you need.

I mean of course. My point is that Ableton should be able to report missing M4L media like any other media, and not silently replace them with defaults. If you delete a sample that is used in a clip, obviously your project will sound different, but Ableton at least reports it at the bottom of the app to let you know (orange missing media bar). On the other hand, if some media is missing in a M4L device, your project will look perfectly normal, but every missing sample will have been silently replaced by some defaults without you knowing.

Regarding the "don't delete what you need" point, I was referring to your sample library changing path for any reason (like getting a new HDD, new computer, reorganizing, etc.). For normal media files, it's dead simple, as Ableton just reports it and you can relocate all of them using hot swap by providing the new search folder. Of course, using Collect & Save for every project would be the ideal option (that's what I was doing back then), but when dealing with hundreds of projects with hundreds of tracks each, it quickly becomes unsustainable as storage becomes scarce, especially when many projects are sharing the same assets. So, now I prefer to have a centralized assets library that I can refer to in every project and keep my projects as streamlined as possible.

[chapelier fou]

I know it's not the answer you want to hear, but I don't use Convolution Reverb any more since Hybrid Reverb has been added. It's just better and safer.

[pottering]

I agree with OP, this a bad problem that is worse than it sounds at first.

I just did a little test, 1 instance of Convolution Reverb in a otherwise empty new Set, loaded a random WAV file I copied to Desktop, saved Set, deleted random WAV file from Desktop.

Then I reloaded the Set. What happens is that the expected orange "missing files" warning flashes in the status bar, BUT DOES NOT STAY (it only flashes for a second).

After that there is no sign in Live's GUI that a file was missing, if you go to Manage Files it shows no missing file, the only feedback/evidence there was a problem when loading the Set is visible only in the Max Windows, where the Max Console shows a "Can't Open" error, waaaaay too buried IMO.

Even if one switches to Hybrid Reverb now, it is still a potential big problem for older Sets, and this can probably affect many other devices besides Convolution Reverb.

It would be quite a pain to have to keep opening Max Window out of paranoia something changed in those old projects where out human memory alone is not enough to recall how it sounded back then.

[[jur]]

I don’t want to sound rude or like I’m lacking empathy, but a DAW is just a very specific type of files manager. It’s as dumb as any Finder/Explorer… If the user isn’t aware of how it’s working, the computer won’t do the work for you.
I’m not saying the technology is too dumb, I even have the feeling that it’s now mature enough, but the files management implementation, even at the OS level, has been lazy imho.

[pottering]

The problem is the lack of warning, you won't even know there is a file management problem to solve, lack of warning is not user error, Live is not properly showing a file was missing and it was silently replaced with the default (completely changing the Set).

Again, the usual orange warning only flashes for less than a second and disappears, leaving only a debug message hidden in the Max Window's Console (there is no entry for the missing file in the Manage Files panel either).

[Rivanni]

It's a bug in Convolution Reverb, and you should report it to Tech Support.
When a sample in, for example, Granulator or Hybrid Reverb is missing, you get the warning. Even if you have not yet executed a 'Collect all and Save'.

When you 'Collect all and Save' (always a wise thing to do), your samples are safely stored inside the project folder.
If they are deleted from the project folder for some reason, and you reload the project, the list of missing files will even show the one for Convolution Reverb. So it works as expected in this scenario.
So,

[pottering]

Yeah, I plan to bug report, but right now Im kinda busy.

[Rivanni]

With "you," I was referring to topic-starter @golitan.

[Golitan]

Will do! Thanks for the help.

Note that I get the same issue with Granulator III, and Hybrid Reverb is not a M4L device.

[Rivanni]

Will do! Thanks for the help.

Note that I get the same issue with Granulator III, and Hybrid Reverb is not a M4L device.

It's wise to test with native devices to determine if this issue is exclusive to Max.
The fact that you’re experiencing the same issue with Granulator III while I’m not suggests that there could be other factors at play.
Please keep us updated when support finds the cause and/or provides a solution.