Mix Set level a bit low...advice?

Agent47 · Post by **Agent47** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:32 am

I am working on some mix sets, I have been rendering from live- no normalization. Then I put it into Peak, normalize and make my track markers, follwed up by burning the mix to CD. The levels seem a bit low, what can I do to get a bit more volume/level? Should I run a utility plugin in the master as well as a limiter/compressor II? These mixes are for demo's so I want them to sound as good as possible!

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:13 am

the perceived loudness of commercial CDs is produced by experienced mastering engineers with good ears being forced to compress the hell out of tracks. They use multi-band compressors, each band gets compressed differently. Plus other tricks.

Get hold of a decent demo set of 'mastering' plugins and see what you like. Everyone has a favourite. Beware of overcompression when you use them .. it's very easy to do - that's where the experienced ears of mastering engineers come in.

I actually render out with some small multi band compression on (on the master of live) because you get less bit depth loss that way. but that's another topic really. Ugly bit depth info being exposed in later mastering.

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:16 pm

i usually set a decent compressor to a very high ratio and very fast attack and release with a threshold set to pick up only the peaks every now and again. Makes it louder for sure but be careful. I dont like the Live compressors for this as they don't seem to be quick enough to the peaks.

Agent47 · Post by **Agent47** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:20 pm

Yes I plan on sending my official demo off to a mastering house but for now I am just looking for a solution I can do myself to get the best possible quality from a home mix/master. From what I have read in search, it seems most of you do not normalize within Live but do it in Peak or soundforge.

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:34 pm

There are several threads on this topic on this forum as well as the KVRaudio.com forum.

From my experience, Elephant by Voxengo.com is by far the most cost-effective and among the best sounding mastering limiters out there. Not only does it create perceived loudness, it brings levels of detail out of your mix that you didn't know you had.

Another chain that works well is T-racks compressor (with the widener set to about 3) and then Elephant. Your mix will simply shine.

Agent47 · Post by **Agent47** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:56 pm

I am on a mac so am limited to available Mac OSX VST's. I don't think Voxengo.com offers OSX VST's.

Ah yes, the T-racks! I completely forgot about that...I need that!!

Agent47 · Post by **Agent47** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:29 pm

OK, I now have T-racks and a BBE sonic maximizer, as well as the TC electronics suite of plugins. HUGE differance!

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:22 pm

rich git

Agent47 · Post by **Agent47** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:25 pm

ha, I wish! I am just determined to get the crisp sound I want outta my mixes!

Now I just need to figure the best way to run these. For recording mix purposes should I just leave the master without any plugins, then render- bring it into Peak and add the T-Racks and maximizer then? From there I could re-record it using audio hijack pro and then cut up my tracks and burn the whole thing. Or...

Should I record my mix in live using the T-racks and maximizer? The BBE really makes it sound a LOT better but it seems to distort the music a bit, I need to play around with it. I have used the rack unit on my guitar rig for years, the thing is great! The plug-in seems just as good.

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:35 pm

i would say use some kind of limiting before you render anything, but thats just the way i like to work.

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:51 pm

since you are on OSX, you may want to have a go with Yohng's W1 Limiter.
its free, and is a pretty good clone of Waves' L1.

http://www.yohng.com/fx/W1LimiterOSX.tar.gz

Also, you have an Apple AUMultibandCompressor that is built into OSX, and accessible in Live so long as you have Audio Units turned on in Plug-In preferences.

the combination of W1 and that AU should certainly give you the results you seek. (and best of all, its a FREE solution)

edit - here's another good free multiband compressor - the C3
http://www.apulsoft.ch/freeports/c3mbco ... 505.dmg.gz

supster · Post by **supster** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:21 pm

ive been thru this a few times, struggled with it ...

the problem:

you're working with already mastered and compressed tracks.

this means anything you do to them as a unit after you mix them together runs the risk of screwing with the sound badly.

when you run your 5 plugins - squeezing, limiting, maximizing, widening etc etc ... does your waveform look like a brick .. flat all the way acrost when you bring it up in your editor?

check it. if it does, imo this means you have f*cked up the sound of your mix for the sake of loudness. i hear it all the time in the mixes i check out, once in a while ive checked them in soundforge ... and sure enough ... its a brick wall.

i have some of these plugins and tried them in different combinations. not saying im not still trying different things, but this is what im doing now:

- i dont normalize or maximize the individual tracks. i use the gain slider in the clip in Live to eyeball the tracks up close to 0 before i start editing and mixing them.

- i dont put anything on the master out while im doing the mix. no limiting, BBE, supermaximawideningcompressaspander ... nothing ...

- while im doing the mix, i keep the volume sliders on the tracks at about -3db or so ... all the while watching the meter on the master during the mixes between two tracks. this is where the sum starts to push the meter over ..

i keep this as high as possible without it going into the red. evenutally it settles somewhere around - 6 or so

- before i render i double check all the intersections between tracks
in arrange view, watching the master. if it clips the red, i nudge it carefully down

- i render 24 bit 44k, no normalizations

- bring it up in soundforge

1 - peak normalize the entire mix (not rms!) ... this brings it up a tad but not much. the wavform pushes the peak of the set to 0 db

2 - then Waves L2 ultramaximizer - out level at - 0.5 db, threshold at no more than - 2 db or so. release etc at auto ... so im really not pulling the threshold way down into the set, im just squeezing it a bit

i preview the wavs to hear how it sounds, if it sounds like the highs are starting to get brittle and burned, i pull up on the threshold and preview again

once i get a happy medium i apply the L2 and look at the waveform. if its blown up fairly well but still has peaks and valleys ... and the only bricks i see are at the very peak maximum parts of the mix ...
i can live with that

this way the mix still has dynamics, my hi's are not wacked out, and its not pushing the volume in my face constantly. its not a perfect method but it works well enough for almost any purpose i use it for now ...
.

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:24 pm

ah crap, i didnt realize this was for MIX SETS.
my advice was more aimed at original productions.
sorry.

yea,
what supster just said above!!

Agent47 · Post by **Agent47** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:26 pm

Thanks Supster, I will try this technique tonight on my mix..I have a nice one planned! I use Peak though because I am on a mac, I dont have soundforge.

Agent47 · Post by **Agent47** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:27 pm

Yeah when I work on originals its a whole other ballgame... This is just for mix sets I am uploading and burning to CD.