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 Post subject: BCF2000 Edit devices with no programming!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 7472
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
I just stumbled upon a way to edit every parameter of every device in a mixer channel using the Mackie/Cubase emulation mode of the BCF2000. WITHOUT HAVING TO PROGRAM OR ASSIGN ANYTHING.
Thought I'd share my findings with you:

Make sure you have a firmware update that has the Mackie/Cubase emulation the latest is 1.10 go here:
http://www.behringer.com/05_support/bc_ ... m?lang=eng

And you also need to get BCFView to see which parameter you are editing.

Important also get this:
http://www.behringer.com/BCF2000/bcf2000_107.zip

Because this ZIP has a PDF document that explains how all the buttons on the BCF are re-programmed in Mackie/Cubase mode. You will probably want to make a paper template to fit on the BCF because some buttons now have THREE functions (normal and 2 different shift functions)

http://www.behringerdownload.de/BCF2000 ... plates.pdf

I assume you have the BCF connected to USB, latest driver installed etc. etc. In MIDI preferences under "Control Surfaces" you need to select "MackieControl" from the dropdown menu. Set "IN" and "OUT" to "BCF2000 (0)"

Here we go:

1: Start the BCF in Cubase emulation mode (If you don't know how to do this look in the PDF) the display should now read "MC_C"

2: Start BCFView (it needs to be started before Live).

3: Start Live. Drop a couple of devices in a track!

4: Press the lower switch under the VPot (the switch closest to the fader) to select the track. (This is channel select in Cubase mode).

5: Press "LEARN" on the BCF (Look in the PDF you can see that this is "insert" in cubase mode.)

6: The bottom line of BCFView will now display the names of the devices that are in the track. Press down on the VPot of the device you want to edit.

7: Now you will see the first 8 parameters of the device. Turning the corresponding VPot will edit that parameter. Pressing down resets a parameter to its default value or steps through modes depending on what type of parameter you're editing (experiment).

8: If there are more that 8 parameters to edit press "EXIT" on the BCF this will bring up the next page. To go back to a previous page press "STORE".

9: To edit another device press "LEARN" again and repeat the steps above.

If there are more than 8 devices in a track then, again, pressing "EXIT" will show the next page and "STORE" the previous page. By the way this is also communicated by the LEDs in these buttons: They light up if there is a page to go to, otherwise they are dim.

Cool huh? :D.

Have a good fiddle with everything... (and a good look at the PDF) there are buttons to switch fader banks, start & stop... At the moment I can't get the FX sends to work but I'm very happy with being able to edit all the devices this way. Hope this works for you too!

Also, email Behringer support to ask them to add an emulation mode for Ableton Live, they said they might consider it. I reckon if a lot of people asked they might do it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 7472
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Just found the sends... the rightmost 2 buttons under the display (where it says "encoder groups" on the BCF) are emulating Page+ and Page- if you press them up and down you'll see sends and also input/output parameters.

Nice.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:17 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:20 am
Posts: 25
Location: budapest, hungary
djsyncro, thats really cool...

do u have the bcf template ready to upload ??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:07 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:20 am
Posts: 25
Location: budapest, hungary
i got it....!!!!!


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 Post subject: cool!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:42 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 14
Location: amsterdam
Thanks for taking the time to post this here... I really appreciate it!... in fact I think alot of people will in the future too.
With this information, me and my computer band can now control shit.
We Luv u!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:31 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:17 pm
Posts: 4735
Location: Indianapolis, USA
kick ass, i think you just sold me on a BCF-2000 !

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:15 am 

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm
Posts: 6461
so in laymens terms what does this mean outside of the control everybody already thought they had with a bcf-2000?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:11 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 7472
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
It means this: One way of controlling Live with the BCF would be to use MIDI learn mode and assign knobs buttons and sliders to things you want to control.

But Live also supports HUI which is a Mackie control protocol. The BCF has Mackie emulation modes for Logic Cubase and Sonar, and it so happens that in Cubase mode almost all functions do something useful in Live. The most important one being that no matter how many parameters there are in (for example) an effect, they will be shown on the BCFView 8 parameters at a time, and by pressing page forward/backward you can edit them all. See my first post on how to select an effect for editing and to the page forward backward thing.

Hope that's clear.


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 Post subject: What the emulated Cubase buttons do in Live 5
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:26 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 7472
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
This is what I found after some experimentation.

In CAPITALS is the function that Behringer has programmed when the BCF is set to MACKIE/CUBASE emulation mode. (See my first post in this thread for all the stuff you need to download) with a description of what it does in Live 5.

SOLO: Solo
F1 - F8: These send MIDI notes so you can assign these yourself with MIDI learn mode.
MUTE: Channel on/off.
RECrdy: Arm track for recording.
VIEW 1..8: These send MIDI notes so you can assign these yourself with MIDI learn mode.
SEL: Select Channel.
FLIP: Flips the Rotary encoders with the faders. (So for example if you are editing filter cutoff you can press FLIP and edit using the fader instead of the rotary which is more responsive).
REVERT: Seems not to do anything in Live.
PAGE+ and PAGE-: Display FX sends and I/O parameters pages.
WRITE: Toggle clip/channel view.
EQ: Previous parameters page when editing instruments/FX (see my first post in this thread on how to do this).
INSTR: Back to arrangement.
VIEW: Toggle faders between the Audio/MIDI and the return channels . If you want to get at the sends in the return channels you have to select the retun with the mouse though.
INSERT: Show instrument and insert devices (see my first post on how to edit).
PAN: Pan.
MASTER: Toggle draw mode (pecil) NOTE: the mouse pointer doesn't change until you move the mouse!
READ: Toggle session/arrange view.
SENDFX: ??? Does something to the faders but nothing useful as far as I can see.
MIXER: Show/hide track/clip view.
SEND: Next page of parameters (see my first post on how to edit).
<BANK & BANK>: Previous/next 8 faders.
<CH & CH>: Moves by 1 fader. Say you were editing faders 9..16 if you press <CH you will then be editing 8-15.
UNDO: Doesn't seem to work in Live.
REDO: No go either.
PREV: Punch out switch.
LOC L: Goto previous locator.
<<: Rewind.
NEXT: Doesn't seem to do anything in Live.
LOC R: Goto next locator.
>>: Fast forward.
ADD: Deselect in arrangement view as far as I can see. (Not very useful).
CYCLE: Cycle.
STOP: Stop.
REC: Rec.
PUNCH: Punch in switch.
PLAY: Play!

I have made little printed strips of paper for myself to mark all the buttons, but since a lot of the Cubase functions are something completely different in Live I will be redoing them with all the Live functions printed on them.
Will post it here (as soon as I get round to it) for whoever wants to print it out and get busy with scissors and glue. :-)

Until Behringer decides to do a emulation especially for Live this works extremely well! All devices are editable in pages of 8 parameters at a time. If you have more than 8 sends: Again you can get to a new page(s) and edit them. Plus, there are still 16 switches that you can assign yourself for firing clips or scene increment/decrement/lauch.

Hope you find this useful.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:31 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:20 am
Posts: 25
Location: budapest, hungary
yo synchro, it looks like you are really dig the BCF....
wicked...

cant wait to see a picture of your labeled BCF....

:wink:


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 Post subject: Response from Behringer customer support
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:05 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 7472
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
I emailed Behringer customer support to tell them that their Cubase emulation mode already controls Live for 90% this I got back today:

Response (Mario van Helden) - 31/08/2005 01.07 PM
Dear Jeroen,

thanks VERY much!!
These information will help lots of users!!
I tranferred your message (among others) to our R&D departement!
Great Work 6 thanks once again!!

Best regards

Mario van Helden
BEHRINGER Customer Support


Sounds positive to me... Let's keep out fingers crossed and hope they emulate Live 5 completely in the next firmware update... 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:31 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Posts: 13004
ahhh , my hand ... it's reaching for my credit caaard.

another controller. yes, that will take away the pain.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:57 pm
Posts: 3597
Location: The south east suburbs of Malmö, Sweden.
And let's hope Behringer add Mackie emulation to the BCR as well!

Cheers,
Mikael


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:34 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:17 pm
Posts: 4735
Location: Indianapolis, USA
i have a question.

i am not entirely familiar with mackie control emulation, but i do "get" it and think its brilliant. I was eyeballing a US-2400 Tascam for a while cause i love how you have dedicated EQ/Aux knobs that can be used per channel just by hitting the SELECT button on the channel. I think that kicks ass for keeping a control surface trim and non-bloated, but also completely useful and intuitive. And i'm considering a BCF2000 in lieu of a Mackie Control.

My question,
can you customize the parameters that are used on devices for future use?

For instance, Lets say that when you have an EQ4 in a track, it shows ALL the parameters for the EQ4, gain, freq, q, band on/off, etc.
But i would like to customize this as such for the 8 knobs on the top of the behringer:
Band 1 Gain, Band 1 Freq / Band 2 Gain, Band 2 Freq / Band 3 Gain, Band 3 Freq / Band 4 Gain, Band 4 Freq.

and then put Q controls on another page ?

and then every time i put an EQ on a track, it shows up on the BCF in mackie mode the way I want it to, as described above.

is this possible or is it a "what you see is what you get" thing with which params go on which pages for Ableton devices ?

And if this is possible,
I'd also like this for VST/AU's like Hydratone, is that possible as well?

djsynchro?
anyone?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 7472
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Hey AdamJay,

Nope, no customizing. only thing is that F1..F8 and View 1..8 send note ons so they can still be assigned to stuff. Otherwise it's all set, including a couple of Cubase commands that do nuthin in Live.

It's not ideal because for example to get to pad 8 of impulse you have to wade through all the pages of pads 1...7 before you get there. However, there is always the mouse.

The good thing is IMO that the BCF is really cheap and you do get to tweak absolutely every parameter with only 8 faders and rotaries, and it works for all my Live sets without first having to assign everything.

The big difference for me is, now I don't have to look at the screen when there's an important tweak to be made, I stare at the space between the speakers and turn a knob till it SOUNDS right, not looks right :-)

Don't know about the Tascam, looks super nice but I'd try it first, or maybe ask them if they're planning to emulate for Live. For that kind of money you'd kind of want it to work perfectly no? :-)


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