Select on Launch via MIDI in b8...NOT???

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:30 pm

Okay, so I read abou the 5.0.2b6 with the "fixed" select on launch via midi/key assignments, so I capitulated and bought the upgrade to 5 now, and then downloaded the latest beta, b8. First I just tried to use it with the preferences and template set Live found from prior versions, but the select on launch via midi didn't seem to work. So I tried deleting the preferences and template files in the b8 folder, to start "fresh". I still get behavior like 4, select on launch does NOT work the first time you launch recording of a clip via midi. If you use a mouse yes it works, but not with midi. If you select a track (using the mouse) and delete it, then launch again via midi, it is selected, but that isn't the point. Can anyone verify this for me, that b8 doesn't do proper Live 3 style select on launch via midi? I definitely have it selected in the preferences menu, I did the delete prefs and templates to start fresh, I'm definitely using b8, but the select on launch is consistently not working.

Try it yourself. If it "seems" to work, try adding a new track, assining midi to the track luanch, arm and then launch recording of a clip. hit the midi pedal again to loop the clip, then try hitting delete to delete the clip--doesn't work. If you haven't clicked with the mouse on the clip slot (this includes just "highlighting" the clip slot, not just launching clips), then select on launch via midi does not work. Can anyone verify?

Ryan

Post by **Alex** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:37 pm

Hi quandry,

your observation is right, "Select on Launch" via MIDI or KEY remote currently always affects the clip view but not always the selection frame.

To demonstrate this: Let us say you have selected any entry in any of Live's file browser. When no trigger a clip via KEY or MIDI remote, the clip view will show this clip but the clip in itself is not selected.
Only if any other clip or slot is already selected it will work.

So we have a different behavior depending on what object is selected before a clip is triggered by MIDI or KEY remote. I admit this is confusing and will talk to the guys about it. But for Live 5.0.2 this behavior will very probably not be changed anymore, sorry.

regards,
Alex

astar · Post by **astar** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:02 am

hey quandry if you assign a KEY for arming a track instead of MIDI it seems to not cause a problem... If that won't work for you you'd have to use alt+up arrow key (maybe assign that to a midi button in Bomes) to bring focus back to the grid view and then press delete and it should work...

cheers

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:35 pm

DAMMIT! I don't 100% follow what y'all are saying, but I get the gist of it--5 doesn't (and apparently won't) have Live 3 style of "select on launch". I'll try to break it down nice "n simple. I use Live to do live looping. I am not perfect. I need the ability to delete clips I'm recording on the fly, in case I mess up. With Live 3, any clip you trigger to record by a midi cc from a midi foot controller is automatically selected EVERY time, thus making it possible to hit the delete key (or use a midi foot pedal and Bomes to translate into a delete keystroke) to delete the clip as it is being recorded. Obviously, this ability to delete clips as they are being recorded WITHOUT using the mouse is an essential aspect of doing live looping with two-handed instruments, where you really can't use the mouse without screwing up the music.

Bottom line is that whatever is going on with 5's supposed "select on launch" is not the same as 3, and doesn't live up to the very clear title that the feature is given in the preferences menu---reguardless of how I launch it, the frikkin' clip should be selected, period. I KNOW I'm not alone here on this--Live 3 behavior of this feature was ideal compared to 4 or 5, and I know that others are missing the 3 behavior on this. Astar--I tried assinging a keystroke to the clip record button, but it definitely doesn't "select on launch". I know the arrows and Bomes trick is possible, but it just makes things too complicated and confounded compared to working in 3, especially Live, so I guess I'm stuck.

I believed the post here saying that this feature was back in beta6, so I coughed up my hard-earned student bread to buy the upgrade, which doesn't do what ABleton said, which is simply to "select on launch" using midi. Now I'm stuck with $119 of worthless looper, I think I want my $$$ back!!! (seriously, can we cancel my serial number and refund my credit card?) Ableton, next time it would help if you clarified that "The 'Select On Launch" doesn't work like 3, and basically just doesn't work if you take it literally. I have tested beta8 for an hour, and I really see NO difference in "select on launch" when compared to 5.0.1 or even 4. Again, the main thing I'm trying to do is to have clips that are in the process of being recorded be selected when I launch them using Midi--totally doesn't work in 5.0.2b8. Thanks for at least trying ABleton, but I'm really confused how you missed the mark so much on this--3 behavior was great, I doubt there were ANY complaints about it, why it got changed in 4 I'll never understand, why we can't seem to get back to it in 5 is painful, please try to get it right for 6 at least (like version 3, where "select on launch"="select on launch" with no qualifiers or bullshit, just straight up, with midi/key/whatever, just select the damn clip on launch like it says).

Ryan

peeddrroo · Post by **peeddrroo** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:53 pm

ryan,

alex told you he acknoledged your issue, and will solve it in a future update. what more do you want?
with 501, there was absolutely no way of having a clip selected on launch. no it partially works. all you have to do is be a little more patient. you know the abes listen to us, and they told you they heard you. just take it easy.

and if you wanted to try the new "select on launch" feature without upgarding, i guess you should have waited until 5.0.2 became the demo version.

Post by **Alex** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:20 pm

Hello quandry,

firstly feel free to contact [email protected] if you want to cancel your order.

Now as I know how do you use "Select on Launch" ... it seems also this works in Live 3 only when a track is armed. Beside that "Select on Launch" does not have any effect when using it with MIDI / KEY remote in Live 3 too.

Just try this in Live 3.
Be sure that "Select on Launch" is on. Take a clip into a track a MIDI / KEY learn this clip. Select any other slot. Now as long as the track is not armed the clip is never selected when firing them via the MIDI or KEY remote

"will talk to the guys about it" means exactly for what it stands for. I will talk to my teammates about it and then we will make a decision concerning this issue. If this applies for a version 6 or something earlier I simply do not know now.

regards,
Alex

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:38 pm

peeddrroo wrote:ryan,

alex told you he acknoledged your issue, and will solve it in a future update. what more do you want?
with 501, there was absolutely no way of having a clip selected on launch. no it partially works. all you have to do is be a little more patient. you know the abes listen to us, and they told you they heard you. just take it easy.

and if you wanted to try the new "select on launch" feature without upgarding, i guess you should have waited until 5.0.2 became the demo version.

Sorry if you don't understand my post, but "select on launch" should be "select on launch" period, not kind of, or under certain climactic conditions in Micronesia, but always. They acknowledged the issue after much whining on my (and other peoples') part, and claimed in the release notes for 5.0.2b6 that it was back, but as you and I both know, it is not like 3, and it does not live up to the simple billing of "select on launch". If other people can live with that it is fine, but I want 3 type behavior for live looping--my whole argurment and multiple posts on this matter were about how 4 and 5 are worthless as loopers, and sadly, they still are. You are right, I guess I should've waited for a 5.0.2 demo, but I guess I figured "select on launch" via midi meant just what it says, CLEARLY it doesn't. I understand not everyone cares about this feature, that there are workarounds, that many people have never even used Live 3, that hardly anyone does live looping with Live, and that most people are DJ'ing pre-recorded clips, but for me, and any other live loopers, this f-ed up feature renders 4 and 5 worthless as loopers--missing a crucial feature that is part of every hardware looper on the planet--undo. At least in 3 the select on launch via midi and bomes allowed undo, now it is impossible without the mouse.

I have been patient, I've been waiting 15 months since 4 first came out, and select on launch is still not what it is billed as, not as it was in 3, and I think we all can agree the 3 behavior was better than 4 or any version of 5. Sorry if you think I need to "take it easy", but when they claim that "select on launch" via midi is back, it should be true, not some obscure half-truth, or at the least it should be better explained (i.e. doesn't work like 3, doesn't work for clips you are recording on the fly, or just doesn't work period). Sounds like I'll get my money back. I'll look forward to them fixing it, and maybe even try to be "patient" and "take it easy" in the interim.

Ryan

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:55 pm

Alex wrote:Hello quandry,

firstly feel free to contact [email protected] if you want to cancel your order.

Now as I know how do you use "Select on Launch" ... it seems also this works in Live 3 only when a track is armed. Beside that "Select on Launch" does not have any effect when using it with MIDI / KEY remote in Live 3 too.

Just try this in Live 3.
Be sure that "Select on Launch" is on. Take a clip into a track a MIDI / KEY learn this clip. Select any other slot. Now as long as the track is not armed the clip is never selected when firing them via the MIDI or KEY remote

"will talk to the guys about it" means exactly for what it stands for. I will talk to my teammates about it and then we will make a decision concerning this issue. If this applies for a version 6 or something earlier I simply do not know now.

regards,
Alex

Many thanks for your quick reply Alex--I know you guys care about the program and want to get this feature right, that means a lot. I tried your test in 3--of course, you are right. I was actually a bit surprised to experience the behavior you described in 3--I guess the reason I haven't ever experienced this behavior in 3 is that I am doing strictly live looping in the session view--I never use pre-recorded clips. For whatever reason, 3 ALWAYS selects the clip on launch when it is a clip that is being recorded (not a pre-recorded clip already in the set)--I can guarantee that this works every time, as I have probably made thousands of loops since 2 came out, at countless gigs, and it works perfect every time. For whatever reasons, 4 and all versions of 5 do NOT work like 3 in this reguard--when you launch the recording of a new clip with a midi/key assignment, it is NOT selected (unless you've already clicked with the mouse on the proper clip slot).

I'm realizing I'm in a small minority as a person using Live in performances as a live looping tool. That said, it seems that proper select on launch could benefit everyone--it is already a pref option, so people who don't want it can ignore it, but when engaged, the functionality should basically be that triggering a clip via midi/key acts EXACTLY the same as triggering a clip via mouse--the clip is selected. This should apply to clips you are recording on the fly, as well as pre-recorded clips in your set. I think all the posts on the matter I've read agree on this--using a midi/key assignment to launch should be the same as using a mouse, "select on launch" should truly be "select on launch", no if, ands, buts, or disclaimers. Sorry if I seem totally rabid and insane over this issue, but it seems like such an obvious and simple thing, right down to the language of it--"select on launch". It is a shame that it is apparently not that simple, that all of the features and advancements in 5 are for nought for live loopers like me, and that the new midi clip transport controls being global essentially require using the mouse to select the proper clip to manipulate (whereas if "select on launch" via midi lived up to it's billing, one could operate essentially mouse free).

Ryan

astar · Post by **astar** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:31 pm

quandry wrote:That said, it seems that proper select on launch could benefit everyone--it is already a pref option, so people who don't want it can ignore it, but when engaged, the functionality should basically be that triggering a clip via midi/key acts EXACTLY the same as triggering a clip via mouse--the clip is selected. This should apply to clips you are recording on the fly, as well as pre-recorded clips in your set.

Am I missing something here? I just recorded and deleted a bunch of clips in 2 different tracks all with midi without touching the mouse in real-time (even clips being currently recorded) with Live 5.0.2b8. This included arming the tracks independently, etc, etc. The only time is doesn't work is if the clip grid is NOT in focus and if that's the case I use alt+arrow key and when grid goes back into focus the previously launched (or currently recording) clip is already selected... (????)

It is VERY possible to select and delete different clips I am recording on the fly without using the mouse in Live 5.0.2b8 over here

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:31 am

astar wrote:Am I missing something here? I just recorded and deleted a bunch of clips in 2 different tracks all with midi without touching the mouse in real-time (even clips being currently recorded) with Live 5.0.2b8. This included arming the tracks independently, etc, etc. The only time is doesn't work is if the clip grid is NOT in focus and if that's the case I use alt+arrow key and when grid goes back into focus the previously launched (or currently recording) clip is already selected... (????)

It is VERY possible to select and delete different clips I am recording on the fly without using the mouse in Live 5.0.2b8 over here

It is not consistent, as you note, it doesn't work if the clip view is not in focus. If the clip grid is not "in focus" (i.e. if you've used the mouse to manipulate anything not in the clip grid), launching via midi doesn't bring the clip into focus. Here's how I consistently encounter the problem in my attempts at live looping in 5:

I arm a track in session view with the mouse to hear my instrument.
Then I use my midi foot pedal sending a cc to trigger recording of a clip
While recording the clip, if I try to hit delete, nothing happens.

Granted, if I use the mouse to select the clip view grid ahead of time, or the alt-arrow trick, I can bring the clip into focus. But this is still more of a hassle than 3, and involves more steps, and just plain isn't "select on launch". Since I work by adding loops to tracks one at a time, and my process of adding a new loop is to use my mouse to first arm the new track and select inputs, then to use a foot patch to trigger recording, the clip grid is inherently not in focus because my move prior to launching the recording of a new clip is to arm the track, thus losing "focus" on the clip view grid. Yes, I could add the alt-arrow trick to highlight flubbed clips to then delete them on the fly, but it is easy to accidentally alt-arrow your way to the track name, and risk deleting the track. These extra steps and possible disasters compared to 3 make 5 undesirable for live looping for me. I realize I should just shut up and keep using 3, but don't people agree that ideally "select on launch" via midi/key should be a fully operational, consistent (every time) "select on launch", reguardless of if the clip view is in focus, without alt-arrows, etc? Isn't this what we all want?

Astar--thanks for taking time to try this out. I think I know why my workflow isn't working--the step right before launching a clip to record is arming a track with the mouse and sometimes changing the input routings, so the clip grid is never in focus when I launch a clip to record. Can you confirm that if you use the mouse to do anything in a non-clip view area (i.e. arm a new track, change input routings, adjust a fader or pan, etc.) just prior to launching a clip via midi, that the clip is NOT in focus upon launch, that simply hitting the delete doesn't delete the clip? I can consistenly reproduce that here--I if I arm a track with the mouse, or adjust any parameter of anything with the mouse just prior to launching a new clip via midi, it is not in focus, not "selected on launch". It would be nice if regaurdless of what I've done with my mouse, of whether the clip view is in focus, if midi/key assignment selected the clip on launch.

Ryan

astar · Post by **astar** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:08 am

Since you are trying to get rid of the mouse entirely why are you using the mouse to arm tracks? Why not create a template that has a bunch of tracks already layed out and where arming of tracks is already assigned to midi buttons or keys on the keyboard. That's how I'm doing it.

When I do it this way I don't lose focus of the clip grid when arming tracks.. It's only if you are arming tracks with the mouse that causes the focus to move to the mixer area... If you have to click on something outside of the clip grid with the mouse just click back into the clip grid before you let go of the mouse... it's one extra mouse click, not a big deal and you shouldn't be using the mouse very much anyway!

Also what I've noticed is that even when the focus is not in the clip grid view the clips are still being selected but you just can't delete them... so I don't get why you're saying it's not TRUE select on lauch.. they're still being selected, they're just not in focus.

The only improvement I do see they could make is to have an option where manipulating a control (or clip, etc.) in an area via midi or key control will automatically put that area into focus. This would be a nice feature, I'm pretty sure this is what you mean that is missing and that was in live 3. But as it stands right now I don't think it's make it or break it... you can still very easily use 5.0.2 as a live looper if you get your workflow figured out.

Cheers and hope this helps ya out.. make sure clip grid is in focus before you let go of the mouse or just don't use the mouse to arm tracks and then it's smooth sailing!

good night

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:18 pm

Thanks again, Astar, for taking the time to try things and reply. Sorry if it seems like I'm disagreeing with you, but here's my latest reply. Okay, you are totally right, yes arming tracks via midi is the way to go, and actually I do have half of my foot pedals set up as such and often arm them that way. That said, I'm often changing the input routing with the mouse for a new loop, or scrubbing with the mouse, or using the mouse to change presets on effects, etc..--any mousing at all that isn't clicking directly on a clip grid causes Live 5 to lose "focus" on the clip view, making select on launch via midi not work. This is ass-backwards--we are essentially forced to use the mouse or alt-arrows to bring the clip grid into focus in the first place, to get true select on launch to work (true in that the clip is really selected and instantly deletable). Yes, one extra click back on the clip view before launching a clip could do the trick, but compared to 3 it is an unecessary step, and still not true select on launch--can't we at least agree on that--if I trigger a clip via midi and it is set to "select on launch" it should select, reguardless of anything else, and it doesn't.

I just did more testing in 5beta8. There are two possible definitions of "focus" on the clip grid--in 5 whenever you use the browser, the interface highlights the area around the browser, same for the clip/effect window at the bottom, same for the mixer/clip grid at the top. However, having the large mixer/clip grid with the highlight around it is not enough, you HAVE to have clicked on a clip in the clip grid (or on slot in the scene area) with the mouse, or use Astar's alt-arrow trick--without using the mouse to select any of the clip grid slots there is no way to have clips selected on launch. I.e. to have a clip select on launch you MUST either use you mouse to highlight a clip slot in the clip grid, or use alt-arrow. Yeah, if you play your cards right, the clip grid may already be in focus, but the only way you got in in focus in the first place was the mouse or alt-arrow, and if you mouse ANYWHERE else on the interface and do anything but click on a clip slot, the select on launch doesn't work.

To me "select" means they are selected, like if you click the mouse on them. I think there should be no difference. To me, if you hit delete in Live at anytime, whatever disappears or gets reset is what was selected--so though I see what you are saying about the waveform in the clip view changing to the appropriate new clip waveform when you launch a different clip, I still think is sucks that the clip itself isn't selected, but at least this seems to be an improvement. I'll try to break it down to specific improvements that would be cool imho (and beyond Live 3):

1. Anytime you launch a clip via midi/key, the clip is selected--i.e. if you hit delete it is deleted. This should work reguardless of where you last clicked, what is in "focus", etc.---it should happen EVERY time. No alt-arrows, no pre-clicking on a clip grid slot, just straight up "select on launch".

2. Anytime you launch a clip via midi/key, the clip view at the bottom of the screen should show up with the appropriate waveform (so that even if you were in the effects view, the clip view would show up on launch (this one might be implemented as an option, as some might not want this behavior).

3. A modifier key as some have described on other threads, where if you are holding the modifier key down and you can "select without launch"--i.e. you can use your midi/key assignments for clips to select the clips without playing them. This could be handy in conjunction with #2 as a way to instantly jump to any clip already playing in the clip transport window.

4. Midi mappable delete key for live loopers and such.

5. Select on launch=Select on launch. Launching a clip with the mouse=launching the clip via midi/key. period. This is not the case in 5, but it would be nice.

Ryan

astar · Post by **astar** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:37 pm

Yes I see what you're saying.. My point is for live looping you shouldn't be using the mouse much anyway.. that's the whole point of select on launch and midi control of clip transport... It's to take the mouse out of the equation. With midi control of start point you can actually do some nice scrubbing without using the mouse by assigning midi buttons to send different values to the midi cc mapped to start point.

To avoid the mouse even more another nice feature would be to have midi control of changing presets as well!

And I think the only way to get around the delete key issue is to have a dedicated delete function key for clips so that you can delete clips when clip drop area view is not in focus. Make that a midi mappable function, of course

I'd rather have it that way than having the focus always jump back to the clip drop area since sometimes it's nice to have the focus stay in the clip waveform/view area so you can zoom in and out of the waveform quickly with + and - while launching clips. Actually, i've noticed in the latest beta this doesn't seem to work the way it should ( I might start another thread about that issue )

And yes, a modifier for selecting clips without launching clips via midi would be nice as well!

Anyway I guess we should move over to the feature request forum

cheers

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:28 pm

I hear ya that it is good/ideal to not have to use the mouse much live, but there are more than a few reasons for the way my set is that make the mouse necessary. Changing input routings, inserting effects, manipulating unmapped effect parameters, changing presets on anything, scrubbing (I greatly prefer 3-style scrubbing compared to 5, that's a whole other thread), are just a few of the reasons I use the mouse, and I imagine other people need to do at least some of these things with the mouse too (presets like you mentioned). Word on midi mappable presets!

I think your delete clip idea is cool, it would totally help out the live loopers out there, and would basically combine my points #2 and 4, but not hurt other workflows like my option #2 (which would be a preference option to avoid hurting people). Sounds great to me--a global, midi-mappable "delete selected clip" button that would work whenever a clip was "selected on launch" via midi/key, reguardless of clip grid focus. This simple feature in addition to this added supposed "select on launch" in the betas, would make live 5 a fully-functional live looper like 3, with the simplicity of hardware loopers: one pedal to start/stop/loop, one pedal to undo ("delete"). Simple, no extra steps, no mouse, working every time via mouse, midi, or key, no alt-arrow---sounds good. This and the "select without launch" would really start to tap into the full power of midi/key clip assignments. Thanks again, Astar, for putting up with my frustrations and contributing solid ideas!

Ryan