automation support for VST params > current 128 limit.

ModuLR · Post by **ModuLR** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:58 am

This is something that is really killing me with live. Many VSTs have more than 128 parameters. If something you want to automate sits outside of the current limit, you can't automate it in Live (unless I'm doing something wrong... in which case, please enlighten me). I would think this has probably been requested before... but since I'm rather new here, hopefully this request can be met. It's very reasonable (and I would think expected) that there would be support for all parameters supplied by the VST.

kineticUk · Post by **kineticUk** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:03 am

I really need this as well. There are some amazing synths out now that have the option of way more control than what is possible in live.
Basically I think lives midi features in general need big improvements, as there is alot I cannot do that I thought would be possible in a DAW.

Clearscreen · Post by **Clearscreen** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:42 am

this would be a nice thing for reaktor and microtonic! using the vst's midi learn isn't always quite as convenient somehow.

Kodama · Post by **Kodama** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:01 pm

¡Bump!

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:22 pm

I agree, really bummed me out this morning to run into this with Microtonic.

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:46 pm

The 128 paramweters limit is a big problem for me, as auto-oscillating parameters!!!! It is screwing the undo and general workflow (the back to arrangment button is always on) I fell on my back when I discovered those limitations ( after all, I taught I was buying a VST host). The abes replied to me in the most insulting manner, they basicalliy said stop using those plugs, they are badly programmed anyway... that is an insult to all those great plugin devs who make them!!!! After all, they are a problen ONLY in Live!!!! So the fault lies on you Ableton, get your act together, I was thinking I was buying a robust solid vst host, and it is a toy for DJs....

...for $400 US!!!!

ModuLR · Post by **ModuLR** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:21 am

dunno the state of things, but ableton.. please give this request consideration. There are MANY great VSTs (both instruments and effects) that utilize more than 128 paramteters. This limitation becomes a real issue when you simply can't automate something that you should be able to. There is no logical reason to halt parameter support at 128, especially when there is no inherent limitation to the number of parameters a VST host can handle within the vst spec... I mean, how do you restore patches if it doesn't setparameter? The functionality surely exists in the code to a certain extent. It might seem small, but as a VST host, this is basic. Live should support ALL parameters... imho, this almost borders a bug as opposed to a feature request.

lesha · Post by **lesha** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:55 pm

for example, when using superwave performer, the automatable parameters aren't the same as stated in their midi cc list..
instead, the list starts with A until it hits 128 parameters (amp1 attack - b2 eq low slope)..

it really is a shame for a 400 bucks host to have such a limitation..

0 Bank Select
1 Modulation Wheel or Lever
2 Breath Controller
3 Chorus Rate Undefined
4 x Foot Controller
5 Portamento Time
6 Data Entry MSB
7 Volume Channel Volume (formerly Main Volume)
8 Chorus Modulation Depth Balance
9 Modulation Depth Undefined
10 Pan
11 x Expression Controller
12 Bank 1 Velocity Sensitivity Effect Control 1
13 Bank 2 Velocity Sensitivity Effect Control 2
14 Bank 1 Pan Undefined
15 Bank 2 Pan Undefined
16 Bank 1 Level General Purpose Controller 1
17 Bank 2 Level General Purpose Controller 2
18 Bank 1 ADSR Filter 1 Pitch General Purpose Controller 3
19 Bank 2 ADSR Filter 2 Pitch General Purpose Controller 4
20 Filter 1 Cutoff Frequency Undefined
21 Filter 1 Resonance Undefined
22 Filter 1 Depth Undefined
23 Filter 1 Attack Undefined
24 Filter 1 Decay Undefined
25 Filter 1 Sustain Undefined
26 Filter 1 Release Undefined
27 Amp 1 Attack Undefined
28 Amp 1 Decay Undefined
29 Amp 1 Sustain Undefined
30 Amp 1 Release Undefined
31 Pattern Generator Smooth Undefined
32 x LSB for Control 0 (Bank Select)
33 x LSB for Control 1 (Modulation Wheel or Lever)
34 x LSB for Control 2 (Breath Controller)
35 x LSB for Control 3 (Undefined)
36 x LSB for Control 4 (Foot Controller)
37 x LSB for Control 5 (Portamento Time)
38 x LSB for Control 6 (Data Entry)
39 x LSB for Control 7 (Channel Volume, formerly Main Volume)
40 x LSB for Control 8 (Balance)
41 x LSB for Control 9 (Undefined)
42 x LSB for Control 10 (Pan)
43 x LSB for Control 11 (Expression Controller)
44 x LSB for Control 12 (Effect control 1)
45 x LSB for Control 13 (Effect control 2)
46 x LSB for Control 14 (Undefined)
47 x LSB for Control 15 (Undefined)
48 x LSB for Control 16 (General Purpose Controller 1)
49 x LSB for Control 17 (General Purpose Controller 2)
50 x LSB for Control 18 (General Purpose Controller 3)
51 x LSB for Control 19 (General Purpose Controller 4)
52 x LSB for Control 20 (Undefined)
53 x LSB for Control 21 (Undefined)
54 x LSB for Control 22 (Undefined)
55 x LSB for Control 23 (Undefined)
56 x LSB for Control 24 (Undefined)
57 x LSB for Control 25 (Undefined)
58 x LSB for Control 26 (Undefined)
59 x LSB for Control 27 (Undefined)
60 x LSB for Control 28 (Undefined)
61 x LSB for Control 29 (Undefined)
62 x LSB for Control 30 (Undefined)
63 x LSB for Control 31 (Undefined)
64 Damper Pedal on/off (Sustain)
65 Portamento On/Off
66 x Sustenuto On/Off
67 Soft Pedal On/Off
68 Legato Footswitch
69 Hold 2
70 Filter 2 Cutoff Frequency Sound Controller 1 (default: Sound Variation)
71 Filter 2 Resonance Sound Controller 2 (default: Timbre/Harmonic Intens.)
72 Filter 2 Depth Sound Controller 3 (default: Release Time)
73 Filter 2 Attack Sound Controller 4 (default: Attack Time)
74 Filter 2 Decay Sound Controller 5 (default: Brightness)
75 Filter 2 Sustain Sound Controller 6 (default: Decay Time - see MMA RP-021)
76 Filter 2 Release Sound Controller 7 (default: Vibrato Rate - see MMA RP-021)
77 Amp 2 Attack Sound Controller 8 (default: Vibrato Depth - see MMA RP-021)
78 Amp 2 Decay Sound Controller 9 (default: Vibrato Delay - see MMA RP-021)
79 Amp 2 Sustain Sound Controller 10 (default undefined - see MMA RP-021)
80 Amp 2 Release General Purpose Controller 5
81 Filter 1 Key Follow General Purpose Controller 6
82 Filter 2 Key Follow General Purpose Controller 7
83 Bank 1 Fine Tune General Purpose Controller 8
84 Bank 2 Fine Tune Portamento Control
85 LFO 1 Depth Undefined
86 LFO 1 Rate Undefined
87 LFO 1 Smooth S/H Undefined
88 LFO 2 Depth Undefined
89 LFO 2 Rate Undefined
90 LFO 2 Smooth S/H Undefined
91 Reverb Level Effects 1 Depth
(default: Reverb Send Level - see MMA RP-023)
(formerly External Effects Depth)
92 Delay Level Effects 2 Depth (formerly Tremolo Depth)
93 Chorus Level Effects 3 Depth
(default: Chorus Send Level - see MMA RP-023)
(formerly Chorus Depth)
94 Filter 1 Velocity Sensitivity Effects 4 Depth (formerly Celeste [Detune] Depth)
95 Filter 2 Velocity Sensitivity Effects 5 Depth (formerly Phaser Depth)
96 x Data Increment (Data Entry +1) (see MMA RP-018)
97 x Data Decrement (Data Entry -1) (see MMA RP-018)
98 x Non-Registered Parameter Number (NRPN) - LSB
99 x Non-Registered Parameter Number (NRPN) - MSB
100 x Registered Parameter Number (RPN) - LSB*
101 x Registered Parameter Number (RPN) - MSB*
102 Bank 1 Oscillator 1 Level Undefined
103 Bank 1 Oscillator 2 Level Undefined
104 Bank 1 Oscillator 3 Level Undefined
105 Bank 1 Oscillator 4 Level Undefined
106 Bank 1 Oscillator 5 Level Undefined
107 Bank 1 Oscillator 6 Level Undefined
108 Bank 1 Oscillator 7 Level Undefined
109 Bank 2 Oscillator 1 Level Undefined
110 Bank 2 Oscillator 2 Level Undefined
111 Bank 2 Oscillator 3 Level Undefined
112 Bank 2 Oscillator 4 Level Undefined
113 Bank 2 Oscillator 5 Level Undefined
114 Bank 2 Oscillator 6 Level Undefined
115 Bank 2 Oscillator 7 Level Undefined
116 Pattern Generator Bank 1 Filter Depth Undefined
117 Pattern Generator Bank 2 Filter Depth Undefined
118 Bank 1 Portamento Time Undefined
119 Bank 2 Portamento Time Undefined
120 [Channel Mode Message] All Sound Off
121 [Channel Mode Message] Reset All Controllers
(See MMA RP-015)
122 [Channel Mode Message] Local Control On/Off
123 [Channel Mode Message] All Notes Off
124 [Channel Mode Message] Omni Mode Off (+ all notes off)
125 [Channel Mode Message] Omni Mode On (+ all notes off)
126 [Channel Mode Message] Poly Mode On/Off (+ all notes off)
127 [Channel Mode Message] Poly Mode On (+ mono off +all notes off)

Johnisfaster · Post by **Johnisfaster** » Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:31 pm

doesn't midi only have 128? 16 channels with 128 cc controllers each go from 0-128 I think. am I wrong? I thought thats all there were.

lesha · Post by **lesha** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:09 am

sw performer has 378 automatable parameters (if i remember right), and i saw people complain about not being able to automate microtonic and reaktor, too..

anyway, there is a workaround using any vst host such as eXT where you can assign midi cc to any parameter you want, but you must automate it in that host..

this way, it screws ableton's workflow... real bummer...

this is one VERY annoying thing for a potential customer

drez · Post by **drez** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:19 am

Here here. More parameters a must.

Trancit · Post by **Trancit** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:00 pm

There is an easy way:

Xlutop`s Chainer as VSTi...www.xlutop.com/html/chainer.html

In Chainer you can assign any VST-Parameter (no limits) to any midicontroller and automate this in Live...and every limitation is gone...

And that is only one of chainer`s features...check it out...

Trancit

lesha · Post by **lesha** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:24 pm

so, what is your point ???

now, you have to buy another vst host just to be able to automate desired parameters?

give me a break..

and it's not an easy way.
that just means MORE windows and a SLOWER workflow, ok ?

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:40 pm

WaveRider wrote:The 128 paramweters limit is a big problem for me, as auto-oscillating parameters!!!! It is screwing the undo and general workflow (the back to arrangment button is always on)

and it really *is* bad programming, dude. Having all sorts of blinky lights show up as automation parameters just *screams* synthedit, even though some of the pros suck as well - LoungeLizard anyone?

Honestly, I want 128+ controls available, but until ableton sort out the window thing, where you have to scroll sideways for ages to find a parameter, it's pretty much useless to me anyway.

Now, if all plugins were more like reaktor, then there wouldn't be a problem - you just move the parameter further up the control numbers

Now that's clever.

Trancit · Post by **Trancit** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:26 pm

lesha wrote:so, what is your point ???

now, you have to buy another vst host just to be able to automate desired parameters?

give me a break..

and it's not an easy way.
that just means MORE windows and a SLOWER workflow, ok ?

My point is that I search for ways which are working for me...and by the way...how much VSTi`s do you automate per project which parameters are "hidden" by Live??? 10% or less...so how much more windows and slower workflow is caused by this workaround vs. being unable to automate these

You will find in every host some points you won`t like or others have solved better...

Chainer has very much capabilities so it`s every cent worth not only to be able to automate "hidden" parameters in Live and if I need 60 "extra" Euros to fit my needs... then I have to pay them or I can`t work...just my two cents

Trancit