[rsu] Sampler does not reproduce correctly Drum Kits in SF2

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:25 am

Hi,

When I use a MIDI Drum Clip (bought on www.SmartLoops.com),
I got different results if I use it with sfz soundfont player (www.rgcaudio.com/downloads/freeware/sfz197.exe)
or Sampler. As comparison the Drum MIDI clip (after some mapping work)
also works fine with impulse and my external gears (see signature)
Sampler is not able to reproduce the whole sound but only the attack, even if I change Scale to 0%.
What's very odd is the fact that I can get some sounds if I enlarge the duration of each drum note in the clip. The clip comes with Sixteenth resolution so the note duration is always 1/16, but if I enlarge the note duration to 1/4, sampler works better.
As a Sf2 bank you can load your 8MBGMGSFX bank that comes on the SbLive Cd or browse the net to http://www.sf2midi.com/index.php?page=sdet&id=2559
and download after registration.
Alternatively you can download any kit from http://www.soundfonts.it/ (go to Soundfonts and then Drum Kits) or whatever. It makes no difference if the Drum Kit is or not GM compatible, you soon got the point.

Any clue?
It seems a bug.

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:50 pm

Anybody confirms?

Sonic Implants does very good SF2 libraries, but it seems drums might be a problem...

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:48 am

It seems I'm the only one

poshook · Post by **poshook** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:21 am

Pasha wrote:It seems I'm the only one

I have got also some conversion problems from SF2 in case of drum kits

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:32 am

poshook wrote:
Pasha wrote:It seems I'm the only one
I have got also some conversion problems from SF2 in case of drum kits

You know, I do not like to be alone....it frightens me...

Should we inform the Abes?

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:47 am

Sampler only has one global envelope.
So the Attack, decay, sustain and release will be the same on all samples.

Sampler is not made to replace drum samplers. But you can make drum samplers in Live. You can do this with a combination of Sampler, simpler, impulse and operator devices (or vst's).

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:56 pm

hoffman2k wrote:Sampler only has one global envelope.
So the Attack, decay, sustain and release will be the same on all samples.

Sampler is not made to replace drum samplers. But you can make drum samplers in Live. You can do this with a combination of Sampler, simpler, impulse and operator devices (or vst's).

Thanks. Sorry for my ignorance...

Ralf · Post by **Ralf** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:04 pm

Hello,

hoffmann2k has described it nicely.

We split the zones into multiple samplers (put into a rack)
if they have different envelopes and such, but we don't
create more than 8 samplers, and then this number also
includes a split for release samples etc.
If splitting for envelopes wouldn't help, we don't split at all.

Ralf

poshook · Post by **poshook** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:44 am

hoffman2k wrote:Sampler only has one global envelope.
So the Attack, decay, sustain and release will be the same on all samples.

Sampler is not made to replace drum samplers. But you can make drum samplers in Live. You can do this with a combination of Sampler, simpler, impulse and operator devices (or vst's).

It is very nica, but I have a lot of drum kits (acoustic drums in GM sets - so more then 8 slots and more than one layer in whole dynamic range) in SF2.
Is there any other possibility to use them except Sampler?

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:17 am

poshook wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:Sampler only has one global envelope.
So the Attack, decay, sustain and release will be the same on all samples.

Sampler is not made to replace drum samplers. But you can make drum samplers in Live. You can do this with a combination of Sampler, simpler, impulse and operator devices (or vst's).
It is very nica, but I have a lot of drum kits (acoustic drums in GM sets - so more then 8 slots and more than one layer in whole dynamic range) in SF2.
Is there any other possibility to use them except Sampler?

you can use this freeware : www.rgcaudio.com/downloads/freeware/sfz197.exe

poshook · Post by **poshook** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:36 am

Pasha wrote:
poshook wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:Sampler only has one global envelope.
So the Attack, decay, sustain and release will be the same on all samples.

Sampler is not made to replace drum samplers. But you can make drum samplers in Live. You can do this with a combination of Sampler, simpler, impulse and operator devices (or vst's).
It is very nica, but I have a lot of drum kits (acoustic drums in GM sets - so more then 8 slots and more than one layer in whole dynamic range) in SF2.
Is there any other possibility to use them except Sampler?
you can use this freeware : www.rgcaudio.com/downloads/freeware/sfz197.exe

and 139,-Euro for Sampler was only for joke?

Is Sampler able to import SF2 or not? So If YES, it should be done right. It does not matter if there are drums or piano. There is no exception on Ableton's site:
"Sampler plays and imports multisample libraries in the common formats: AKAI S1000, S3000, GigaStudio, EXS, SoundFont and (non-encrypted) Kontakt." So do not tell me about other instruments and VSTis or something else but make conversion solid

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:25 am

poshook wrote:
Pasha wrote:
poshook wrote: It is very nica, but I have a lot of drum kits (acoustic drums in GM sets - so more then 8 slots and more than one layer in whole dynamic range) in SF2.
Is there any other possibility to use them except Sampler?
you can use this freeware : www.rgcaudio.com/downloads/freeware/sfz197.exe
and 139,-Euro for Sampler was only for joke?

Is Sampler able to import SF2 or not? So If YES, it should be done right. It does not matter if there are drums or piano. There is no exception on Ableton's site:
"Sampler plays and imports multisample libraries in the common formats: AKAI S1000, S3000, GigaStudio, EXS, SoundFont and (non-encrypted) Kontakt." So do not tell me about other instruments and VSTis or something else but make conversion solid

Hi Poshook it seems you are upset with me.
You shouldn't, I was trying to help.
I'm in the process of evaluating Live 6.0.1 using the demo, for I was not in the beta cycle. I have posted this to understand the sampler's behaviour.
Hoffman2k got it right. I would like Abes comment on that. What about open a support request?

poshook · Post by **poshook** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:32 am

It is OK Pasha

poshook · Post by **poshook** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:34 am

Pasha wrote:
poshook wrote:
Pasha wrote: you can use this freeware : www.rgcaudio.com/downloads/freeware/sfz197.exe
It is OK, but I dont agree with hoffman2k and Ralf excusing this bug because Sampler is not for drums... It does not matter for what type of instruments is, important is full compatibility with proclaimed standards

and 139,-Euro for Sampler was only for joke?

Is Sampler able to import SF2 or not? So If YES, it should be done right. It does not matter if there are drums or piano. There is no exception on Ableton's site:
"Sampler plays and imports multisample libraries in the common formats: AKAI S1000, S3000, GigaStudio, EXS, SoundFont and (non-encrypted) Kontakt." So do not tell me about other instruments and VSTis or something else but make conversion solid
Hi Poshook it seems you are upset with me.
You shouldn't, I was trying to help.
I'm in the process of evaluating Live 6.0.1 using the demo, for I was not in the beta cycle. I have posted this to understand the sampler's behaviour.
Hoffman2k got it right. I would like Abes comment on that. What about open a support request?

But I do not agree with hoffman2k and Ralf excusing bug in conversion because Sampler is not for drums. It does not matter for what it is, important is only full compatibility with particular formats

Ralf · Post by **Ralf** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:04 pm

poshook wrote:
But I do not agree with hoffman2k and Ralf excusing bug in conversion because Sampler is not for drums. It does not matter for what it is, important is only full compatibility with particular formats

Poshook,

I'm afraid that each sampler may be compatible only to the
extend of the features it supports. 100% compatibility means
100% equal parameters and operation, the samplers should be equal.

But if you take any two samplers, especially the powerful ones, the
common features they support are only 50 or maybe 70% of all
features. In fact, there is a hard competition between manufacturers
to invent new cool features which the others don't support.

Soundfont2 is a particularly open and rich format which allows
to specify much more than any sampler understands.

Ableton Sampler has only global envelopes. On the other hand,
drum kits typically require different envelopes for each sample.
So, Ableton Sampler is not designed for drumkits, and it is not
promoted as such.

I hate to say it, but you will have no big success in playing drum
kits imported from sf2 with Ableton Sampler. But if you want to import
other kinds of instruments, like keys, strings or wind instruments,
from sf2, I'm sure you will have a good time.

Concerning parameters which can be represented in Live Sampler,
we are working permanently on the improvement of their import,
by fixing bugs and implementing a better and more complete mapping.

Ralf