OT - Germans Push Europe on Holocaust

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:19 pm

"BERLIN, Jan. 13 — Germany wants to use its European Union presidency to push through legislation that would make denying the Holocaust punishable by stiff prison sentences in all 27 of the union’s member states.

Germany’s justice minister, Brigitte Zypries, said Thursday night that Germany’s commitment to combating racism and xenophobia — and keeping the memory of the Holocaust alive — was both an enduring historical obligation and a present-day political necessity.

“We have always said that it can’t be the case that it should still be acceptable in Europe to say the Holocaust never existed and that six million Jews were never killed,” she said. Under the German proposal, she said, those who deny the Nazi slaughter of Jews during World War II could face up to three years in prison if convicted.

Ms. Zypries said the proposal, which will be debated by the bloc’s justice ministers in the next six months, would also seek to criminalize racist declarations that are an incitement to violence against a person or group. The aim, she said, was to harmonize national legal systems in their approach to combating racism and xenophobia.

Unifying the handling of hate crimes in countries with vastly different legal cultures could prove difficult, legal analysts said. European leaders have been unanimous in condemning those who deny the Holocaust, and they sharply criticized the Iranian government for sponsoring a recent conference that sought to cast doubt on it.

But the question of whether to criminalize such acts has divided Europe. Germany sees a European Union law on denial as a moral imperative, but other countries, like Britain, Italy and Denmark, have resisted common rules as infringing on free speech and civil liberties."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/14/world ... ref=slogin

The mind boggles. Thought crime?

laurence · Post by **laurence** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:33 pm

Its like racism or any other 'ism' for that matter, if authorities catch you doing it, or you get enough reliable witnesses then one would be prosecuted for 'dening the holocoust'.

Now i thought they were putting cctv with screens and microphones into every room in every house in the eu, that would have been interesting...

Yet the phrase 'nanny state' comes to mind

speaking of which, those screens from '1984' would have been useful for live 6, think about it, screen, mic and even video capabilites for all those vjs out there...

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:13 pm

laurence wrote:speaking of which, those screens from '1984' would have been useful for live 6, think about it, screen, mic and even video capabilites for all those vjs out there...

Switch it to 24h fox news. Then you also get the fear from the screen like in 1984

Though instead of big brother, we could have the spinning Henke's....

muscleandhate · Post by **muscleandhate** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:15 pm

Seems like a faceless attempt by the German government to bolster international opinion. To imprision someoone for an idea or political stance is very dangerous.

corygilbert · Post by **corygilbert** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:25 pm

muscleandhate wrote:Seems like a faceless attempt by the German government to bolster international opinion. To imprision someoone for an idea or political stance is very dangerous.

except when that "political stance" is an absolute non-truth and the propagation of which constitutes probable harm to citizens of that nation.
Like yelling fire in a crowded area where there is none.
I do understand the need for political and verbal freedom, and support it fully. I would be somewhat frightened by this move if I were a German citizen. I guess I would just hope that people would have enough sense to remember the past correctly. But living in a world with people full of hate and misunderstood ideas is the price we pay for freedom. So unfortunately I have to say I disagree with this proposal as well. my2sense.

andydes · Post by **andydes** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:58 pm

corygilbert wrote: except when that "political stance" is an absolute non-truth and the propagation of which constitutes probable harm to citizens of that nation.
Like yelling fire in a crowded area where there is none.

How about evolution denial?

Oh, now I've done it.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:07 pm

andydes wrote:
corygilbert wrote: except when that "political stance" is an absolute non-truth and the propagation of which constitutes probable harm to citizens of that nation.
Like yelling fire in a crowded area where there is none.
How about evolution denial?

Oh, now I've done it.

I love intelligent design.
Devised by idiots...

Pure Irony Gold

sqook · Post by **sqook** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:26 pm

andydes wrote:
corygilbert wrote: except when that "political stance" is an absolute non-truth and the propagation of which constitutes probable harm to citizens of that nation.
Like yelling fire in a crowded area where there is none.
How about evolution denial?

Oh, now I've done it.

When evolution kills 6 million people, let me know....

Actually, wait a second... now that I think about it, 99% of all species that have existed on earth are now extinct, which means that... OMG, Darwin and Hitler must have been conspiring together!!!!

stew · Post by **stew** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:07 pm

The intentions are good, but the method is IMHO wrong. Making it illegal to say the Holocaust hasn't happened will eradicate Nazis just as much as making Heroin illegal has eliminated drug trafficking.

Let Nazis wear their swastikas, I say! That'll make it easier for us to know who to laugh at.

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:27 pm

This isnt about neonazis (imo), to have 'holocaust denial' isnt about denying the event happened, its about questioning the version of events that we are told is true. You cannot question the numbers that died (STILL not concrete), the way it happened or the motive for them doing it. This is the whole problem with the Iranian leader, he never suggested that it didnt happen at all, he questioned the numbers of people and the way it happened. He knows that Prescott Bush and others were a large part of funding the nazis & letting them get where they did (and then recruiting them after the war).

This just annoys me though, most people think holocaust denial is about thinking it never happened...that simply isnt the case, if i say only 4 million or 10 million jews died i could go to prison for denial. Its denial of the official story, not denial of the event.

And what about the other millions that died who were not jewish, are they forgotten? Can I say that there was less of them & not get charged?

M. Bréqs · Post by **M. Bréqs** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:29 pm

Before I comment on this matter, I think I should shed some light on my intellectual background here;

Nobody on this forum will accuse me of being anti-israel or anti-jewish. Despite being an agnostic who borders on athiesm, I'm pretty much a zionist for political reasons.

Two of my great-grandparents came from Germany and Bavaria. I had relatives fight on both sides during World War II. My Maternal Grandfather was actually interned by the Nazis, as he was a Canadian citizen, though born in Germany, who was visiting relatives in Germany when the war broke out in 1939. They didn't trust him to let him go free, wouldn't put an enemy citizen in the Wehrmacht either (even though they considered him German still), so they put him in a camp. Since he was considered "aryan" it was a "nicer" camp but it was a camp for dissidents and political opponents nonetheless.

At any rate, I'm torn. On one hand, I agree that holocaust denial is disgusting, but I also think that without the freedom to express asshole ideas, you don't get the chance to challenge them. If you make it illegal to say the world is flat, then people will think there's some validity to the arguement. Only through discourse can you prove that the world is round.

andydes · Post by **andydes** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:33 pm

sqook wrote:
andydes wrote:
corygilbert wrote: except when that "political stance" is an absolute non-truth and the propagation of which constitutes probable harm to citizens of that nation.
Like yelling fire in a crowded area where there is none.
How about evolution denial?

Oh, now I've done it.
When evolution kills 6 million people, let me know....

Actually, wait a second... now that I think about it, 99% of all species that have existed on earth are now extinct, which means that... OMG, Darwin and Hitler must have been conspiring together!!!!

Actually my point was more about religions still promoting the beliefs and values of people who didn't even know why the sun came up in the morning. Which wouldn't be so bad if certain intolerant people weren't prepared to kill for their beliefs.

Hence, holocaust denial leads to religious hatred.
Evolution denial leads to religious hatred.

But don't mind me, just being argumentative. Back to the real topic.

andydes · Post by **andydes** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:51 pm

Good point Breqs. I was going to say something similar (not the bit about your family) but decided to have a cheap shot at religion instead.

Maybe a better argument would have been for me to say "9/11 denial anyone?" I think that might just fan the flames of conspiracy theories.

Certainly can't think of any other historical event that's illegal to question. (That wasn't meant to sound disrespectful). I can see why it was illegal shortly after the war, but it seems now it could just make the problem worse.

LOFA · Post by **LOFA** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:15 pm

The idea seems excessive. While it shows a good intent and clearly indicates an eagerness to bolster the clear regret and positive intentions of the nation today, it risks emphasizing an extreme solution for a problem that was originally associated with extremism to begin with. If I was a German citizen I would be troubled how such positive efforts might be spun. Altogether it seems, imo, to be a rash effort to improve the growing economies' image. I agree with the intentions. I'm a genetic mix of both sides battling the war myself. Publicly accepted impositions of our speech in any form do however lubricate the descent towards further impositions on others of our civil liberties. Very dicey imo.

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:51 pm

"to have 'holocaust denial' isnt about denying the event happened, its about questioning the version of events that we are told is true."

It just so happens that 99.9% of folks who hold ideas such as yours hate Jews. I'm not saying you do, but the folks that hide behind the "revisionist" curtain, happen to have pasts filled with Jew hatred.

And Jews like Finkelstein...just listen when he speaks. The self-disgust flows like a fountain.