Ableton or Renoise?

SuicidexCult · Post by **SuicidexCult** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:28 pm

I only recently started using software within the last year or so (mostly dj'd and used drum machines) and recently got ableton 6. I'd been messing around with renoise seeing as the people who's music I like the most use it (enduser, ventian snares) Although I have run into a million questions and have been sorting through the answers on the renoise forums as well. I want to make my music super glitchy but with renoise its entering code and such and really doesnt seem all that user friendly. Then a friend got me a copy of ableton live and I found out that I can create all the same sounds with this as well (and ableton has a much more user friendly feel) but of course I am running into problems here as the tutorials are very helpful but dont go in depth enough to the questions I have. Is there a better tutorial for writing beats or glitching sampled loops?
I have a feeling that ableton can do what I want it to do, stick it out, or not?

p.s. I get the tiniest delay when I arm my keyboard with samples which is a major problem if trying to record a beat on time, wtf?

Johnisfaster · Post by **Johnisfaster** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:42 pm

if you have a legal version of ableton there is a manual.

there is also a book out there called live 6 power.
http://product.half.ebay.com/Ableton-Li ... rZ57155626

or you could just spend alot of time on this message board as everyone is really helpful here.

check out the top of the "tips and tricks" section and you'll see a really extensive list of helpful tricks and tips and racks and all sorts of stuff.

but yeah, you probably don't want renoise unless you want it ya know? it's one of those programs you either like or don't I think. and no it isn't very user friendly at all.

download dblue glitch to help you start making glitches, and a plugin called livecut. google those with vst after it you'll find them.

SuicidexCult · Post by **SuicidexCult** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:08 pm

sweet thanks. I've watched a few of the demos on here and it makes sooo much more sense than renoise. I still have no idea what I am doing but I have at least learned how to input the notes to create a beat which is a start, problem is I hear all this crazy glitches in my head and do not know how to do them. I think I should focus on using ableton rather than inputting 009abc all day with renoise. I hate to ask a million questions, but I went to that dblue glitch page and downloaded it (I listened to the sample of what they did to that amen break and this is EXACTLY what I need) now how do I apply it in ableton?
oh, and is there any reason why I get a slight delay when hitting my keys on my keyboard? I have to input all of my notes to make a beat and it sounds too mechanical

dmacintyre · Post by **dmacintyre** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:24 pm

Renoise is superb - I love the fact that it's so different to use, but that is what makes it totally unsuitable for a newbie. IMHO it's really a techno / dance / electro tool. Stick with Ableton Live with a few plugs for glitch, at least until you are comfortable (actually Renoise and Live are BOTH suitable for glitch but you need to know how to use them properly). Re the delay, check the latency in your Live preferences. Should be around 256 or less for unnoticeable delay between hitting a key and hearing the sound. Plugins like the one mentioned are inserted into a track to either generate the sound (instrument on a midi track) or alter the sound of the audio (after a midi instrument or on an audio track). Download the demo, do the lessons, then ask away on this forum.

D.

telekom · Post by **telekom** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:29 pm

Hi suicidexcult
Welcome to the forum. I've never seen renoise... sounds tough... but you might get some good starters here:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52820

all about glitchy sounds in Live...

The delay in hearing notes when you hit the keyboard is likely to be due to latency. It's a measurement of time in milliseconds which tells you how long it takes for the signal to be processed by your soundcard. So if I have an input latency of 14ms (the signal going in) and an output latency of 14ms (the signal going out) you have a total delay of 28ms. Keep trying to reduce the latency in Live preferences until you get a reasonable quality sound with no dropouts and the shortest possible latency. I would try this using a pad sound or something since if you play glitchy noises you might not be able to tell when the soundcard is struggling to playback!

And have lotsa fun... you will...

corygilbert · Post by **corygilbert** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:44 pm

If you haven't already, buy live, you will get more out of it and appreciate greater returns in your efforts, both now and later.
BUT,
keep demoing renoise, it's a superb tracker, what you are doing is far from coding, but i understand the learning curve. The qualities that Renoise has over ableton are few but very important for the style of music you are seeking to create.
The timing in Live is great, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, but there is an inherent limit to the resolution of events that a midi system of any kind can give you. And before I get yelled at here, i'm not just talking about latency and the accuracy of playing in notes to live. i'm also reffering to the ability of a tracker to quickly (once you've learned the methods) of entering trigger information and changing elements such as start times, sample lengths and repeat variations.
Very important things for very fast intricite drums.
You can do these things in live, I and many do, but I still use renoise for the above reasons and because the interface does take your mind out of the paridigm of DaW and into a more sculpting type of attitude in reference to your beats.
Bottome line for me:
Ableton rocks, keep working and digging and asking questions here, you will not be disappointed.
Keep demoing renoise, it will keep you thinking in different terms and allow you to go more resolute with intricate/crisp types of drums.
Besides if you begin to develop your skills in REnoise it's a might cheaper than ableton and you'll already be off to a great start with a great program.
Oh and remember, nobody wants to hear you chop up the Amen break,
we've actually run through all the permutations of slice/cut of this great break.
Like monkeys with typewriters, for gods sake, he's heard us AMEN!!

Oh and just for the record, making glitchy/ breakcorish beats in ReNoise and importing the waves into Ableton is awesome, maybe chop it up in Recycle first?!!

telekom · Post by **telekom** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:49 pm

corygilbert wrote: Oh and remember, nobody wants to hear you chop up the Amen break,
we've actually run through all the permutations of slice/cut of this great break.
Like monkeys with typewriters, for gods sake, he's heard us AMEN!!

Heh heh, yeah! Can anybody remember the link for that video about the history of the amen break? If you haven't seen it Suicidexcult, it's worth a watch.

Found it: http://nkhstudio.com/pages/amen_mp4.html

Takes a wee while to load but worth it. Enjoy

Michael-SW · Post by **Michael-SW** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:06 pm

I guess you are on a PC and using some sort of consumer sound card?

Then you probably can decrease you latency a big amount by installing the www.asio4all.com drivers and selecting them in your Live preferences.

SuicidexCult · Post by **SuicidexCult** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:56 pm

corygilbert wrote:If you haven't already, buy live, you will get more out of it and appreciate greater returns in your efforts, both now and later.
BUT,
keep demoing renoise, it's a superb tracker, what you are doing is far from coding, but i understand the learning curve. The qualities that Renoise has over ableton are few but very important for the style of music you are seeking to create.
The timing in Live is great, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, but there is an inherent limit to the resolution of events that a midi system of any kind can give you. And before I get yelled at here, i'm not just talking about latency and the accuracy of playing in notes to live. i'm also reffering to the ability of a tracker to quickly (once you've learned the methods) of entering trigger information and changing elements such as start times, sample lengths and repeat variations.
Very important things for very fast intricite drums.
You can do these things in live, I and many do, but I still use renoise for the above reasons and because the interface does take your mind out of the paridigm of DaW and into a more sculpting type of attitude in reference to your beats.
Bottome line for me:
Ableton rocks, keep working and digging and asking questions here, you will not be disappointed.
Keep demoing renoise, it will keep you thinking in different terms and allow you to go more resolute with intricate/crisp types of drums.
Besides if you begin to develop your skills in REnoise it's a might cheaper than ableton and you'll already be off to a great start with a great program.
Oh and remember, nobody wants to hear you chop up the Amen break,
we've actually run through all the permutations of slice/cut of this great break.
Like monkeys with typewriters, for gods sake, he's heard us AMEN!!

Oh and just for the record, making glitchy/ breakcorish beats in ReNoise and importing the waves into Ableton is awesome, maybe chop it up in Recycle first?!!

yes, no more slicing the amen! I've been dj'ing for years but have recently decided I dont like most of the records I hear compared to what I want to make. I'm no noob to this style of music, just creating it. I actually have fully registered versions of both ableton and renoise so I'm good to go. I look at beat slicing on renoise and its confusing as hell, numbers and letters assigned to microscopic sections. ableton seems to do the same sounds but be more hands on. I dunno, I'm still trying to figure it out.
Its very frustrating hearing the sounds in my head I want to make, even seeing them in the videos on the ableton/renoise sites but trying to learn it seems like trig class. haha. I'll keep trudging away though and asking questions...

Johnisfaster · Post by **Johnisfaster** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:17 pm

like I said if you want to start making glitches real soon you need some plugins to start you out.

dblue glitch
supatrigga
livecut
destroyfx also makes some good noise plugs like bufferoverride and transverb

google all those, also try finding anything and everything that is made for granular synthesis or granular effects. google is your best friend, you'll find lots of plugs that make good noises.

not that plugins will do everything for you, but it's a good place to start when you're trying to figure out how to make noises.

SuicidexCult · Post by **SuicidexCult** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:19 pm

Johnisfaster wrote:like I said if you want to start making glitches real soon you need some plugins to start you out.

dblue glitch
supatrigga
livecut
destroyfx also makes some good noise plugs like bufferoverride and transverb

google all those, also try finding anything and everything that is made for granular synthesis or granular effects. google is your best friend, you'll find lots of plugs that make good noises.

not that plugins will do everything for you, but it's a good place to start when you're trying to figure out how to make noises.

yeah, up there I said I got that dblue one, how do i apply it in ableton?
thx

SuicidexCult · Post by **SuicidexCult** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:38 pm

AH, nevermind I got that dblue plugin working. This is pretty sick, all I've been doing is sitting here mangling beats, thanks so much for the help! I'm sure I'll have plenty of other questions to ask later

steve-o · Post by **steve-o** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:52 pm

you can do some very glitchy stuff with GURU.

corygilbert · Post by **corygilbert** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:57 pm

SuicidexCult wrote:
corygilbert wrote:""
yes, no more slicing the amen! I've been dj'ing for years but have recently decided I dont like most of the records I hear compared to what I want to make. I'm no noob to this style of music, just creating it. I actually have fully registered versions of both ableton and renoise so I'm good to go. I look at beat slicing on renoise and its confusing as hell, numbers and letters assigned to microscopic sections. ableton seems to do the same sounds but be more hands on. I dunno, I'm still trying to figure it out.
Its very frustrating hearing the sounds in my head I want to make, even seeing them in the videos on the ableton/renoise sites but trying to learn it seems like trig class. haha. I'll keep trudging away though and asking questions...

Yes, Ableton will do these things very well, it's just that at certain speeds and with certain timbres, REnoise, for me, is more precise, definately harder to work up an idea with, but if you know what you are trying to do to begin with, it's very capable of some very unusual and exacting precision that, for me, is a little mushy in ableton.
just my 2 sense.

blank · Post by **blank** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:06 am

Just to tell, you refer to venetian snares, he use renoise for sure but if you dig well you will se that he uses tons of other softwares, including ableton as far as I know.

I use both ableton and renoise plus tons of other stuff like liveslice, lucifer, livecut and ect.

The only thing I can say is you will have to invest time and a lot of brain juice to be able to reproduce every noise you have poping in your head.

have fun and welcome to the ableton forums, the best audio comunity over the web.