Playing with live musicians

maxxer · Post by **maxxer** » Thu May 03, 2007 5:44 am

hey all -
i'm having a problem that i haven't been able to find specifically addressed -
I need to sync to a live drummer
Obviously i use the tap temp to get our initial tempos lined up. Its trickier than i thought it might be, but i'm getting it under control

however, the problem i have is with long samples (say a few bars)
we gradually fall out of sync, thats fine - but when i correct the tempo change with tap tempo we're already at slightly different places in the bar, which means even though i can correct it so we're back at the same BPM, we're no longer playing at exactly the the same point in the timeline (or, rather, in the bar) -

is there a way to get it so that when i tap tempo- ableton skip to the nearest quantized beat in the timeline?

also - is there a away to disable 4 consecutive taps on tap tempo from starting playback
(i.e. if i wanted to tap many time before to make sure i'm in time?)

any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

cheers!

BeatPsychic · Post by **BeatPsychic** » Thu May 03, 2007 5:49 am

wow maxxer, you mean your doing this while performing live? or you're trying to sync them after he records his tracks? Either way, it is the drummers job to sync to the click/tempo. I've been a professional drummer for many years now, and just from personal experience, your trying to do things the exact opposite of the way they are normally done...especially if it is a live performing situation. It can be done if it is a recorded performance, but you have to basically go through the whole track with a visual representation of the downbeats and line up his hits.

rbmonosylabik · Post by **rbmonosylabik** » Thu May 03, 2007 6:07 am

Send him a click track to play against. It's WAY harder for the computer guy to follow a drummer's (drifting or not) own tempo than for the drummer to follow a click track and still do very interesting things.

maxxer · Post by **maxxer** » Thu May 03, 2007 6:12 am

ya - this is for live performance

click for the drummer - obvious choice and should have addressed that in my post -
lets say I've also done my fair share of drumming and would now like to bring some of that flexibility to sampling

I want the ability to error correct and in some sort of way 'play live' as opposed to 'pressing play' and hoping for the best (i.e. that the drummer will correct himself to me).

this is partly the drummers job - but i like to think that all the musicians in a group should adjust to each other

maxxer · Post by **maxxer** » Thu May 03, 2007 6:23 am

just for clarity -
i read

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... =tap+tempo

where everyone's consensus is use a click for the drummer...

can we see if we can get an alternative? how would WE as Ableton Live performers slave ourselves to a drummer?

pj_player · Post by **pj_player** » Thu May 03, 2007 12:02 pm

i'm sure a while back some guy was working on a plug-in that synced to a drummer, he was writing all about it on this forum, too. it was mac only, so i took no interest.

the most basic way to sync to a drummer is to have them tap the tempo every now and again (you'd need a pad for this, obviously). or, you could make them tap tempo with their left foot the whole time (not so good if they're having to open and close the hat). this wouldn't work with non-warped samples of course.

BassTooth · Post by **BassTooth** » Thu May 03, 2007 1:24 pm

pj_player wrote:i'm sure a while back some guy was working on a plug-in that synced to a drummer, he was writing all about it on this forum, too. it was mac only, so i took no interest.

the most basic way to sync to a drummer is to have them tap the tempo every now and again (you'd need a pad for this, obviously). or, you could make them tap tempo with their left foot the whole time (not so good if they're having to open and close the hat). this wouldn't work with non-warped samples of course.

you would need an actual trigger to do this (like a drum pad) or http://www.ddrum.com/main.php
and then a drum brain to convert it to MIDI and then into LIVE.

and what if the drummer doesn't just keep the tempo with hi-hat the whole time? then you would need several triggers and a way to differ between which drum controls tempo.

i don't know anything about this product because i haven't tried it http://www.circular-logic.com/ but it might be a good idea to see if others have used it and what they thought about it.

after watching the demo video on circular logic's website. it seems as though its the type of product where as the drummer gets better and better i don't know if the machine would be able to keep up.

also, the job of a drummer is to keep time. if the drummer can't do that then he is no good. give em a click track. then you can make tempo maps with the tempo varying in any way you choose. i understand too that alot of drummer just have a basic problem with click tracks, like they're embarassed to use em or they just don't want to for whatever reason. thats where your people skills come in.

pj_player · Post by **pj_player** » Thu May 03, 2007 2:08 pm

you would need an actual trigger to do this (like a drum pad) or http://www.ddrum.com/main.php
and then a drum brain to convert it to MIDI and then into LIVE.

and what if the drummer doesn't just keep the tempo with hi-hat the whole time? then you would need several triggers and a way to differ between which drum controls tempo.

i don't know anything about this product because i haven't tried it http://www.circular-logic.com/ but it might be a good idea to see if others have used it and what they thought about it.

yep, you'd need a trigger and a module and a midi cable. i't very cheap these days to get a some simple pads and something like an alesis dm5 to make a nice impulse based drum kit.

i would assume that the drummer wouldn't be using their left foot at all in songs usually (our drummer very rarely uses the hi-hat pedal) so the they could stomp away on a pad connected to a spare bass pedal on every beat. i've no idea if this would be hard for a drummer, perhaps i'll get our drummer to try it at the next rehearsal.

gabster · Post by **gabster** » Thu May 03, 2007 3:52 pm

Or what about this idea:

Get one of those double kick pedals (like heavy metal drummers have) and use a kick module of a V-drum to the spare one (considering that the first one is applied on the acoustic kick drum).
Take that MIDI signal and map it to the TAP tempo in ABleton. at that point you will have a constant sync in ABleton to what the drummer does.

Not sure if this practically works though - it is a theory...

Gabi.

maxxer · Post by **maxxer** » Thu May 03, 2007 6:49 pm

hey all
thanks for he responses - midi trigger via drummer is a good idea, but it doesn't address getting out of sync

lets says the drummer screws up and lands a little ahead of me in the bar - this will not only mess the BPM of tap tempo (because he will have set a much faster temo, do to being ahead of the beat)
But we'll also be out of sync in where we in the bar

how do we get back in sync with each other wthiout
restarting the samples

Basically I think what i want is some way to get the second tap of tap tempo to also get ableton to skip to the nearest 1/4 note (or whatever quantization)
in the master timeline

carterreece · Post by **carterreece** » Fri May 04, 2007 2:49 am

hey guys, new to the forum, but i couldn't help myself on this one.

i just started using live, myself, and i am a drummer. no jokes please! i use live for running ambient loops and accessory percussion and i run hard drum lines over the top of that.

since this thread just started today, give your drummer a chance at playing to the click, first, and see if he hangs. i have found, though, that i keep a relief track of timeless 'noise' in my scenes so when everyone else gets out of whack (i never do... ha), i can 'bail' and run the noise portion for a bit and then tap into the the next scene that has rhythm.

electropoet · Post by **electropoet** » Fri May 04, 2007 4:46 am

It's just like anything else...it takes practice...i'm a guitarist that records drum loops from an electronic kit into live via audio...i used midi for a while so it would quantize once it started to loop...but it took out to much feel. I'm not great..but improved greatly after a couple months and my recorded live drum loops sound A-OK. One thing I do that I've found works good is to set up a track that has specific beats on it that I route to the cue/click output...the straight click is alright, but my playing is tighter when I play to a particular beat...so depending on the beat I am going to play/record, I'll also trigger whatever beat I want to monitor (vie the cue) as I lay down my beat...sometimes i'll customize the beat by filtering out the kick a little beforehand, since the kick is usually the hardest thing for me to nail and I want to hear exactly what I'm playing...hats and snare are what I lock onto...sometimes I'll premix the cued beat with a tamborine loop which seems to help with the groove as well...the point is...some beats will naturally help you find the pocket...depends on what your playing...a straight click is more opened ended...just keep in mind the you probably shouldn't use the same pre-programmed beat everytime...change it up...this will allow you to change up the groove...I regularly record drum loops of 16 and 32 bars and when I record the practice session or gig...the timing sounds fine and easliy passes...again...it all comes down to the drummers skill and practice. Hope this helps. scott

btw-circular logic is a nightmare...not the easiest route by any stretch. It's a completely different set of rules if you want to keep the thing from freaking out and ruining the tempo completely.
also...try as many options as you want...but I can tell you that ultimately your drummer will have to have his own monitor mix which allows him/her to a)hear the music, b)hear the drums, and c) hear the click. honestly man, There is no other way.

gabster · Post by **gabster** » Fri May 04, 2007 3:32 pm

try as many options as you want...but I can tell you that ultimately your drummer will have to have his own monitor mix which allows him/her to a)hear the music, b)hear the drums, and c) hear the click. honestly man, There is no other way.

Well said.
Gabi.

hambone1 · Post by **hambone1** » Fri May 04, 2007 4:05 pm

Damn... I hope all of this sync/tempo hassle brings real musicians playing real instruments back to the forefront!

BassTooth · Post by **BassTooth** » Fri May 04, 2007 5:23 pm

http://www.ploytec.com/34one/

maybe? seems like it is designed more for standalone keyboards tho, wonder if it would work with Live.

wouldn't any footpedal with a MIDI out theoretically work to trigger the tap tempo?

i'm gonna buy one just so i can fuck with tempos. i love all of the effects and arpeggiation that audio technology has availible, but i would rather find ways to eliminate that robotic, mechanical, stagnant-tempo feel and simulate a more natural feel/groove.

or even http://www.roland.com/products/en/TMC-6/index.html and a trigger.

Playing with live musicians

Playing with live musicians

drummer here...