mastering in live.

mrvapour · Post by **mrvapour** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:11 am

"i build three chains inside a main mastering chain.

each chain contains an EQ 8 and a compressor. Use low and hi cut filters to select your frequency range in each EQ 8 and then adjust your compressors accordingly. Throw a nice reverb in the end with low "wet" and a limiter and you've got a mastering chain."

I found this quote on a forum and it sounds really useful, but i don't know how to do it! Can someone guide me through this? I'm not sure how to build multiple chains in a chain. Im lost!

Hope you can help. Thanks

pepezabala · Post by **pepezabala** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:23 am

drop an empty audio effectrack into the master channel. Click on the little circles on the left side on it, so you see all details and nothing is hidden. You will notice that by default there is one chain. Rightclick into the space below the chain, and select "create chain" (or similar, I don't have live here at work, hehe). Voilá, you have two chains now. Repeat, then you have three chains. Now drop the effects you need on each chain.

spkey · Post by **spkey** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:28 am

It does not sound such a wise advice to me throwing a reverb on the Master channel but then it might be a genre thing.

If you don't know what you're doing I would advice you to avoid using a compressor on the master channel as well. If all you want is to make your music louder throw a good limiter in. Compressors squash your dynamics and make your tunes sound 'harsh' when played at loud levels.

If you still want to go ahead why don't you try some of Ableton's presets? I remember if you navigate through the Live browser on Instrument effects there is a Mastering folder with quite a few presets there. Just throw a few in and play with the parameters.

But remember:
1) Don't get over-excited
2) Don't get easily impressed
3) Less is more (especially on the master channel)

sp.

mrvapour · Post by **mrvapour** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:44 am

Thank you both for that. I know what yo mean about over compressing, it can sound awful.

not a bad job, if you can go on the net eh pepezabala!

Thanks again

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:45 pm

I think reverb in the master chain is a very dangerous idea, and I never do it - it's way to easy to screw up the mix. If I did use one, I'd never use Live's reverb...last I remember, it's a mono reverb...I'd use at least some very high quality verb with a true stereo processing input and output chain. But again, I see no real need to add a reverb to the whole mix at the mastering stage. Use your reverbs in the mix, not at the master.

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:12 pm

+1

Agreed. Reverb on the master channel is usually taboo.

Perhaps this was some kind of DJing setup for live performance ? Reverb should be saved for tracks, via sends (or inserts if you need a specific reverb effect for a particular audio/MIDI track).

The advice on compression was pertinent too. Unless you know exactly why you should have something like a small amount of buss compression and how to apply it effectively, avoid it.

If you are sending your file to be mastered elsewhere, then definately avoid it, or at least consult with the ME as to why you think it is necessary and await their feedback (99.9% of the time the ME will advise you against it still)

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:08 am

Ok for over compression and reverb on the master warning, but what about EQ?
Is it a good thing to tailor your song with an EQ on the Master?

- Best
- Pasha

pepezabala · Post by **pepezabala** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:38 am

it all depends on the source-material.

We have a live-recording from our last concert, straight out of the desk, and here it was quite nice to apply a little reverb, heavy equing and even a bit of saturation.

But if you have the multitrack-session available you should apply eq in the mix and not when mastering.

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:04 pm

pepezabala wrote:it all depends on the source-material.

We have a live-recording from our last concert, straight out of the desk, and here it was quite nice to apply a little reverb, heavy equing and even a bit of saturation.

But if you have the multitrack-session available you should apply eq in the mix and not when mastering.

Let me try to recap because I'm getting confused.
When I mix I add EQ to tracks when needed and I use volume and effects to have a better blending of tracks, leaving Master at 0db and adding a limiter to avoid clipping. I then export using dither so that the resulting 2 stereo tracks file is 44Khz 16bit, ready to be mastered on a CD.
The Mastering process for me falls in between the export and the CD Burn. What I'd do there with the stereo file would be putting an EQ and a Compressor to have a better balance in frequencies and avoid recorded material to get unnoticed. To do this EQ is the tool of choice and compressor might help.
Is my description correct?

- Best
- Pasha

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:00 pm

http://tarekith.com/assets/mastering.html

Hidden Driveways · Post by **Hidden Driveways** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:17 pm

I use Live to create the master mix. I cannot master with Live.

I use separate software for mastering (Peak Pro5). Without the ability to create crossfades between songs (or between tracks on a CD) then it's impossible for me to master an album the way I think it should be done.

Having the ability to create crossfades between songs for digitally downloaded albums is something that needs to be addressed with mastering software immediately. I've always felt that song arrangement on an album and how the tracks interact with one another (crossfade) is just as critically important as every other artisitc decision that must be made.

I need to be able to create a downloadable album or EP where the songs meld into one another seamlessly, yet the listener can still scroll through the songs on their MP3 player. Pardon for hijacking the thread, but does anyone know of a method to do this?

Hidden Driveways · Post by **Hidden Driveways** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:18 pm

edit: double post

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:38 pm

@ Pasha - dither should be the last step you do. You should export the song at 88.2 kHz and the highest bit-depth you can. Then run it through your mastering chain, and export from there to 44.1/16 with dither. After this step, you should not make any further changes to the file.

By exporting at 88.2 kHz, you will get great resolution, and it will be easy to convert to 44.1 because the math is very simple (divide by two....if you try to go from 48>44.1 or 96>44.1 you will end up with rounding errors....very very subtle distortion). I have noticed definite improvements to details by rendering at higher sample rate than 44.1 prior to mastering.

Dither is always the last step because any processing at all will ruin the effect of dithering, which is to bring up the tiny details lost by converting from a higher bit-depth to a lower bit-depth.

Hidden Driveways · Post by **Hidden Driveways** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:56 pm

ethios4 wrote:@ Pasha - dither should be the last step you do. You should export the song at 88.2 kHz and the highest bit-depth you can. Then run it through your mastering chain, and export from there to 44.1/16 with dither. After this step, you should not make any further changes to the file.

By exporting at 88.2 kHz, you will get great resolution, and it will be easy to convert to 44.1 because the math is very simple (divide by two....if you try to go from 48>44.1 or 96>44.1 you will end up with rounding errors....very very subtle distortion). I have noticed definite improvements to details by rendering at higher sample rate than 44.1 prior to mastering.

Dither is always the last step because any processing at all will ruin the effect of dithering, which is to bring up the tiny details lost by converting from a higher bit-depth to a lower bit-depth.

Good call, ethios. The Live manual goes out of its way to stress that point. From what I gather, if you're going to dither, dither only once. If you're giving a mix to a mastering studio - do not dither.

[Note: when we say "dither" we mean that you change the sampling rate when rendering or exporting a song out of Live - or any other DAW]

Am I correct in thinking that you should render the song out of Live with the sampling rate that it was created with? Do you create all of your work in 88.2? Also, since Live supports using clips with various bit rates in a single set, does this rule not apply to bit rate?

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:33 pm

Well, the Live manual says that sample-rate and bit-depth changes should be handled in a better application if possible. So, if you have a better application for this purpose, render out of Live at the highest sample-rate and bit-depth you can (taking into consideration the sample-rate of the destination medium ie, 44.1 for CD, 48 for DVD) and do the conversion in the other app.***

So, even if the project was recorded at 44.1 or 48, you will still getter better results rendering at the highest appropriate sample-rate and bit-depth. All processing done in Live (volume changes, plugins, etc) will benefit from being done (rendered) at the highest settings. Reverb tails will be smoother, low level details clearer, cleaner high frequencies.

Basically, you should stay at the highest quality possible until the very final export, from whatever application.

Also, "dither" is actually a special kind of low-level noise added just before a bit-rate reduction....not the actual bit-rate reduction itself. Dither has nothing to do with sample-rate changes. If you go from 24-bit to 16-bit, you are losing 8 bits of info, which corresponds to the lowest level details of your music. Dither is like audio magic that brings up those details into the 16-bit realm, at the expense of adding very low level noise. If you do any processing after the dither is added, it will likely destroy the effect.

*** Again, it is best to work in sample-rates that are integer multiples of your destination sampling rate. Therefore, if you are going to CD, work in 44.1 or 88.2. If you are going for DVD, work in 48 or 96.