a bit of an epiphany

[Johnisfaster]

I realised the other day exactly what turns me on about other peoples music.

mystery and surprise

I think most people are the same way, they may not know it yet though. Of course not everyone will be the same though.

but for me, I love the mystery involved in listening to other peoples music. wondering about the machines they used and the rooms they were in and the city they live in. what were they thinking about and what were they dealing with in their lives.

the other is surprise, I love it when I song catches me off gaurd and does something unexpected.

so then comes the epiphany, I'm never ever going to feel that way about my own music. it's impossible to actually surprise yourself (sorta debatable) and there will certainly not be any mystery involved.

that can be a downer if you let it, but just cause I won't feel the same about my music as I do about other peoples music doesn't mean it's going to be doomed to be less important to me. You just learn to get something else out of your music than you get from other peoples music.

that might all sound obvious to some, but I find it easier to map out my thoughts like this so I can see where they lead.

I just thought someone else might get somethign out of it.

[Homebelly]

I've had a kind of epiphany of my own these past few weeks.
I've started using Live almost exclusively lately, haven't opened Logic in weeks and use mainstage as a stand alone synth for all my logic synth needs. Any hoo...
I'm listening back to some of the mixes i have on my HD looking to see if any are worth finishing and i notice that none of them have any real point of reference.
For example, its not as though i can listen and say,, oh! This one is my Eric Clapton guitar over a NIN drum loop with blah-blah-blah... where all of my influences are apparent.
At first i was kind of shocked and figured i was crap.
But now i'm thinking that really its become about me and not my influences.
None of my recent stuff is genre specific. Thats not to say its awesome either..
Most of it is noise based guitar wankery with bent out of shape sound design..
But at least its all me!!!!
I'm kind of stoked actually..
I even set up a virb page to host some of it.

[Johnisfaster]

point of reference is a bit of an interesting topic actually. but apart from the genre or style or influence side of things I realized listening back on old music that I couldn't remember what I used to make what in most of the tracks. that was when I was using all soft synths and effects. of course here and there I could remember "that was operator" and what not but I wanted the experience to be more tangible.

over the last year and a half I've been buying hardware not necessarily cause it sounds better (it does to me...) but because I want to build a relationship with the machines I use and the sounds I record. now when I listen to something I've made I can very easily recognize that this sound is the mc-202 and that sound is the juno-106 and so on. it makes it more personal to me because of the personal relationship to the machines being used as opposed to a vague memory of clicking things around in a computer till it sounded right.

simple things like the fact that the juno is missing a few fader caps makes the music have almost a history and a personal reference in time. the micro modular has a scratch on the face. one of my effect units has a scratchy pot when I turn it which ends up on recordings sometimes and sometimes I even leave it.

somehow I think if they could create a softsynth that sounded identical to an electric guitar and even a controller that felt and played like a guitar in every way people would still cherish their real guitar because it's just real. I personally used to fall asleep holding my guitar everyday after school when I was a teenager. you can't have that kind of relationship with a plugin.

[Homebelly]

I hate when these sorts of threads pop up, as i always seem to be at work and can't respond fast enough.

I am so on board with what you are saying.
For years i have said "Thats it.. no more upgrading my software".
At the start of the year i got the chance to buy a G2 at a great price, so i jumped on it, then along came a chance to buy a Novation Nova desk top, same deal, jumped on it..
Not because ay of his stuff is better than Massive, FM8 or Reaktor,, but because i have a personal relationship with the pieces,, especially the nova, it was my first synth.

I've been a big fan of virtual modeling and own several guitar amp sims and so on.
Nothing wrong with any of them, especially by the time i've finished messing with the
final out put,, but right about now i'm juggling with spending money on a computer upgrade, or getting a real life tube amp..
My G5 and my MBP both handle more than enough audio files in a mix, both tend to fall behind if i start using lots of VST/AU synths in real time, but i'm starting to remember how much fun it was to record i real time and then mess with the audio..
I think thats the way things are working for me right now, so i'm prolly not getting a new comp, but will get the amp.

Like you say..
Its the personal contact aspect of making a sound with my hands rather than with a mouse...

[COSM]

I'm exactly the same, I imagine the satisfaction/appreciation of music is hardwired into our problem solving reward mechanism... think about the tension and release of phrases, drops, fake drops, doing the unexpected but then giving it back twice as hard.

Us audio geeks just draw the line of preferred complexity even further!

How many times have you cringed when you hear a track being fed through the default preset of Dblue glitch? no mystery there...

[IQ]

wondering about the machines they used and the rooms they were in and the city they live in. what were they thinking about and what were they dealing with in their lives.

Amen to that

[Johnisfaster]

How many times have you cringed when you hear a track being fed through the default preset of Dblue glitch? no mystery there...

hahaha, totally.

although I do love dblue glitch, but often times it's just dropped on a track with no thought.

[koneko]

its a good, crucial point and its all about the impossible catch of judging your creation from outside vs keeping it coming from inside. its possible that the 'judging from outside' has to be dropped, or at least - to give up on going both ways at the same time. there are times to spill it out as if there were no audience at all, and times to take a distance and be able to let your music be valued by yourself, as if it was not yours. sounds superman-like? thats it.
although, its early in the morning. i'd definitely give it a thought later

[pepezabala]

I realised the other day exactly what turns me on about other peoples music.

mystery and surprise

I think most people are the same way, they may not know it yet though. Of course not everyone will be the same though.

but for me, I love the mystery involved in listening to other peoples music. wondering about the machines they used and the rooms they were in and the city they live in. what were they thinking about and what were they dealing with in their lives.

the other is surprise, I love it when I song catches me off gaurd and does something unexpected.

so then comes the epiphany, I'm never ever going to feel that way about my own music. it's impossible to actually surprise yourself (sorta debatable) and there will certainly not be any mystery involved.

There is one big and very important point about making music in what you say here. Mystery and surprise are inherent qualities of the joy of making music.
They can be achieved when you explore new techniques/new instruments etc, but mostly when you do music with other people. That is the reason why music gets itneresting when you do it with other people. This is what improvisation is about. What Sun Ra talked about. This is the main thing I am interested in ... and that's why we do those improvisation-sessions here in Barcelona, on sunday the next one ...

[oblique strategies]

I realised the other day exactly what turns me on about other peoples music.

mystery and surprise

so then comes the epiphany, I'm never ever going to feel that way about my own music. it's impossible to actually surprise yourself (sorta debatable) and there will certainly not be any mystery involved.

These are some of the same things I value too. And I will debate with you!

I experience mystery & surprise in my music because it is based on improv. I literally do not know how certain sounds & pieces of music will interact with others. I blend sounds & music together to form new blends.

And when I do compose in a traditional manner, it (or parts of it), can end up in some big sound blendage I'm doing, & become part of a larger sound world. I am a maximalist, & like to have lots of sounds swirling about. Mixing in quad surrounds me in sound.

For years I worked with a partner. We would never discuss what we were going to do, we'd just set up all our gear (mainly cassette decks, tapes, & percussion instruments), hit record on our recording deck, & blend sounds, & play percussion instruments. Then we'd get together later on to listen to the tapes. Sometimes we'd just look at each other wondering how we made all those sounds & interesting moments when things collided in a wonderful way. I still work this way, but with different equipment, & I am still amazed by the synchronicity.

I have set up numerous improv ambient jams based on these same methods with a number of my friends who work in more rigid, traditional ways. They always appreciate being able to just cut loose & explore creating sound. It's also a great way to really fine tune your listening skills. Listening is key to good improv interactions.

So, you could set some time aside to do free form sound explorations. Use as broad a sound palette as possible: don't just use synths & drum machines -use all the sounds & music from the entire history of recorded music & film! Play instruments that you don't know how to play. Let the rhythms clash. Everything is permitted. It's like a reset for your creativity, & you may just surprise yourself.

[oblique strategies]

Mystery and surprise are inherent qualities of the joy of making music.
They can be achieved when you explore new techniques/new instruments etc, but mostly when you do music with other people. That is the reason why music gets itneresting when you do it with other people. This is what improvisation is about. What Sun Ra talked about. This is the main thing I am interested in ... and that's why we do those improvisation-sessions here in Barcelona, on sunday the next one ...

Ahhhh... You beat me to the punch! While I was writing mine, you posted yours. Greetings, fellow improv explorer!



The father of a friend of mine produced the Sun Ra movie 'Space Is The Place'. My pal's father had some of the full-head Egyptian masks that were worn in the film in his music studio.

[arkoenig]

Many years ago I heard the claim, which I still believe, that what makes music interesting is the right amount of surprise. To little and it's boring; too much and it's incomprehensible.

Nothing is more surprising than total randomness -- by definition, there is no way to predict what it will do next. But there is no way to understand randomness, because it has no essence. That is, if it is truely random, there is no way to describe it any more succinctly than the original.

So the best music does what one expects part of the time, but departs from the pattern enough to be interesting.

[Lo-Fi Massahkah]

So the best music does what one expects part of the time, but departs from the pattern enough to be interesting.

I've been thinking about this for quite a lot - expectations. Expectations can be towards form (verse-chorus-verse) or towards genre (pop, hip-hop). And recognition lies within meeting the expected. So you could say "Well - I'm really into glitch". You know that genre and the form which it takes.

But then there's the music that grows on you - which you might find un-listenable when you first get in contact with it, due to form or harmony that you're not used to. If there are elements that you find interesting enough to make you return to the piece or the artist then recognition (and appreciation) might occur over time.

So in pop music the form could go:

verse, verse, chorus, verse, middle eight, chorus to fade

In classical music the form might be:

A, B, A, B, C, D, F, F, B, A

In both cases there's repetition within the piece and recycling of elements. But what if one wrote an entirely linear piece without repetition?

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

I'm hoping that recognition and appreciation might occur over time. But how do you go about grabbing the listeners attention so he/she will return to listen for a second time?

.m