Question for Ableton & External Consoles/Mixers

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
rengel
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:32 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by rengel » Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:52 am

Drush...

Your post cracked me up... "stop talking about sasha" Love it! :D
I'm a little impatient when it comes to new gadgets and toys, and I'm very used to the old traditional style of beatmatching with my CDJ1000's and SL1200's... doing this through a program confuses me to no end 8O
I really want to get into it, because I'd like to focus "less" on beatmatching, and more on my style, cutting tracks, loops, etc.. generally making my mix sound different to others...

I just invested in a nice little PowerBook G4 (15" screen, 1.5GB RAM, 80GB HDD, yadda yadda). I've got 2 CDJ1000's and 1 DJM600 sitting on my loungeroom floor doing nothing.. I look at all this equip and think.. I really could do SOMETHING with it all... but I'd like to get hefty into Live.. so you think just play around with it for a while? Import some tracks, warp them, cut them, etc??
(by the way, a simple thing like "what about listening to the cue song, rather than the monitor one, like when you mix with turntables?" cant find the answer to that anywhere! do i need a 'firewire' audiphile maudio thing to do that with ?? :?

I downloaded a copy of Live Demo off their web site.. I know it comes with a manual, but Im' stuck on the external console idea, rather than using a mouse/keyboard.. as soon as I visually see things 'hooked up' and assigned to buttons, controls, channels, etc I'll get a better understanding..

Hmm.. I'm looking at the CTRL 92 Allen Heath... any good? or am I barking up the wrong tree (again) :cry:

Ralph.

drush
Posts: 1282
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:40 am
Location: Venice, CA
Contact:

Post by drush » Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:16 am

rengel wrote:so you think just play around with it for a while? Import some tracks, warp them, cut them, etc??
yep. you need to spend some time so you can make some time, as they say.
rengel wrote:(by the way, a simple thing like "what about listening to the cue song, rather than the monitor one, like when you mix with turntables?" cant find the answer to that anywhere! do i need a 'firewire' audiphile maudio thing to do that with ?? :?

look up "prelisten". yes, you'll need a soundcard with at least 2 stereo outs. or you can prelisten in mono.
rengel wrote:I downloaded a copy of Live Demo off their web site.. I know it comes with a manual, but Im' stuck on the external console idea, rather than using a mouse/keyboard.. as soon as I visually see things 'hooked up' and assigned to buttons, controls, channels, etc I'll get a better understanding..

Hmm.. I'm looking at the CTRL 92 Allen Heath... any good? or am I barking up the wrong tree (again) :cry:

Ralph.
i'd say you are barking up the wrong tree. or making the tree way too complicated. sure, you can get a 92 if you are intent on integrating a traditional dj set up with ableton, but that's not what it sounds like you want to do. if what you want to do is use ableton all you need is a midi controller (or just the computer keyboard for that matter) and the computer. and a soundcard if prelisten is really important to you. that's it.

this notion that you need some kind of maven batman utility belt bullshit integrated firewire/audio/midi/nuclear command center is like most things sasha does, a pack of lies. aka Marketing.

rengel
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:32 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by rengel » Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:28 am

Ok, I'll jump right into Ableton and have a play, maybe I'll need to do it Mono, as I have no external sound card to have 2 stereo outs.
What's a good device that you'd recommend looking into if you were to buy an external one? Audiophile?

What I want to do is basically to sell my CDJ1000's, sell the DJM600 Mixer, and use my Laptop to mix my tunes. I have most of my tracks on .wav or .mp3 now, so I want to get away from using 'decks' as such, and just use Ableton to do my mixing. Basically 'replicating' my setup, but moving from physical turntables and a mixer to Ableton and a mixer.

I agree about the batman utility belt, looks mean and clean, but in all essence, it's not needed.

Looks like i'll need that external sound card though... hhmm.. now I just need to work out how to actually use it first! :oops:

Do you DJ? Do you use Live? I should have asked you that to begin with :)

dCross
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:01 pm
Location: Ableton NY
Contact:

Post by dCross » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:25 am

rengel wrote:Ok, I'll jump right into Ableton and have a play, maybe I'll need to do it Mono, as I have no external sound card to have 2 stereo outs.
What's a good device that you'd recommend looking into if you were to buy an external one? Audiophile?

What I want to do is basically to sell my CDJ1000's, sell the DJM600 Mixer, and use my Laptop to mix my tunes. I have most of my tracks on .wav or .mp3 now, so I want to get away from using 'decks' as such, and just use Ableton to do my mixing. Basically 'replicating' my setup, but moving from physical turntables and a mixer to Ableton and a mixer.

I agree about the batman utility belt, looks mean and clean, but in all essence, it's not needed.

Looks like i'll need that external sound card though... hhmm.. now I just need to work out how to actually use it first! :oops:

Do you DJ? Do you use Live? I should have asked you that to begin with :)
I think you're one of the first (of many) DJs that are going to come stumbling onto this forum looking for ways to ditch their equipment and go "Live" after seeing what Sasha did. Now don't take that as offense, I'm actually a big Sasha fan myself, and like how he's popularizing this version of digital DJing (he is by FAR not the first to do this, by the way).

A warning, though: you've stumbled onto a community of music producers. Some of them (like our friendly tech-god AdamJay) started out DJing, then moved to production. I myself am a much stronger DJ than producer.

But many of the people here are music producers to the bone, and have certain opinions about Sasha, about DJs, and about dance music. Some of them think that Sasha is a complete hack that plays terrible music. Some of them think that DJs as a whole are idiots that don't have the talent to play their own music. Some of them think that dance music is too commercial, that a high and mighty tool like Ableton Live is only for making music for people with ecletic tastes.

Now, of course, these are extreme opinions from months of being on this forum, but I wasn't used to them when I first came here. A lot of that has to do with the fact that the boards I participate in are oriented more towards clubbers and DJ Equipment geeks. I get the feeling you're coming from the same place.

So what's this whole rant for? I just wanted to let you know that Ableton Live has a user base much larger than DJs, and we're the strangers here - we're the outsiders, the hacks that want to use a full-featured virtual studio for something as mundane as triggering clips to DJ with.

This also means that Ableton Live has the same learning curve as a traditional Virtual Studio (think Cubase/Logic/etc.). If you want to use it to its full potential, you're going to have to spend a very long time at it. As someone coming from a strong background in both DJing and computer hardware/software, I've had an incredibly hard time wrapping my head around how this all works.

If you want to use Live to DJ in the way you mentioned (cutting up tracks into loops, focusing on your "style"), you're basically going to have to become a music producer as well. Now, as you may have seen, the rewards for your hard work can be quite fruitful, but remember: this ain't Traktor - 99% of Live is completely foreign to DJs, and it takes a while to learn how to use it.


In a nutshell, if you want to go down this road, don't sell your gear yet - you're going to need it for a while until you learn how to use this amazing tool.

In terms of your hardware question - some Mac users have had some trouble with M-Audio products recently, I think with the Firewire interfaces. There are a ton of options out there, but for an affordable alternative to M-audio, you may want to look into Echo Audio's Indigo line (http://www.echoaudio.com).

supster
Posts: 2133
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:26 am
Location: Orlando FL

Post by supster » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:31 am

drc24 wrote:
rengel wrote:Ok, I'll jump right into Ableton and have a play, maybe I'll need to do it Mono, as I have no external sound card to have 2 stereo outs.
What's a good device that you'd recommend looking into if you were to buy an external one? Audiophile?

What I want to do is basically to sell my CDJ1000's, sell the DJM600 Mixer, and use my Laptop to mix my tunes. I have most of my tracks on .wav or .mp3 now, so I want to get away from using 'decks' as such, and just use Ableton to do my mixing. Basically 'replicating' my setup, but moving from physical turntables and a mixer to Ableton and a mixer.

I agree about the batman utility belt, looks mean and clean, but in all essence, it's not needed.

Looks like i'll need that external sound card though... hhmm.. now I just need to work out how to actually use it first! :oops:

Do you DJ? Do you use Live? I should have asked you that to begin with :)
I think you're one of the first (of many) DJs that are going to come stumbling onto this forum looking for ways to ditch their equipment and go "Live" after seeing what Sasha did. Now don't take that as offense, I'm actually a big Sasha fan myself, and like how he's popularizing this version of digital DJing (he is by FAR not the first to do this, by the way).

A warning, though: you've stumbled onto a community of music producers. Some of them (like our friendly tech-god AdamJay) started out DJing, then moved to production. I myself am a much stronger DJ than producer.

But many of the people here are music producers to the bone, and have certain opinions about Sasha, about DJs, and about dance music. Some of them think that Sasha is a complete hack that plays terrible music. Some of them think that DJs as a whole are idiots that don't have the talent to play their own music. Some of them think that dance music is too commercial, that a high and mighty tool like Ableton Live is only for making music for people with ecletic tastes.

Now, of course, these are extreme opinions from months of being on this forum, but I wasn't used to them when I first came here. A lot of that has to do with the fact that the boards I participate in are oriented more towards clubbers and DJ Equipment geeks. I get the feeling you're coming from the same place.

So what's this whole rant for? I just wanted to let you know that Ableton Live has a user base much larger than DJs, and we're the strangers here - we're the outsiders, the hacks that want to use a full-featured virtual studio for something as mundane as triggering clips to DJ with.

This also means that Ableton Live has the same learning curve as a traditional Virtual Studio (think Cubase/Logic/etc.). If you want to use it to its full potential, you're going to have to spend a very long time at it. As someone coming from a strong background in both DJing and computer hardware/software, I've had an incredibly hard time wrapping my head around how this all works.

If you want to use Live to DJ in the way you mentioned (cutting up tracks into loops, focusing on your "style"), you're basically going to have to become a music producer as well. Now, as you may have seen, the rewards for your hard work can be quite fruitful, but remember: this ain't Traktor - 99% of Live is completely foreign to DJs, and it takes a while to learn how to use it.


In a nutshell, if you want to go down this road, don't sell your gear yet - you're going to need it for a while until you learn how to use this amazing tool.

In terms of your hardware question - some Mac users have had some trouble with M-Audio products recently, I think with the Firewire interfaces. There are a ton of options out there, but for an affordable alternative to M-audio, you may want to look into Echo Audio's Indigo line (http://www.echoaudio.com).


he's pretty much saying: its not that easy ;)

.
--
NEW SPECS: Athlon 4200+ dual; A8N-SLI m/b; Win XP Home SP2; 1 GB RAM; 2x 7200 RPM HDD: 1 internal, 1 Firewire 800 (Firewire is project data drive); M-Audio Triggerfinger

josh 'vonster' von; tracks and sets
http://www.joshvon.com

MrYellow
Posts: 1887
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:10 am
Contact:

Post by MrYellow » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:31 am

I've chcecked out the sites that MrYellow has pointed out, however you
can't buy any of those (are they only projects?).
Yeah just showing you how if you want a custom comtroller with nice
retro buttons like Sasha then you can build it yourself rather than buying
a super light, already made, has everything you need pre-fab job.
What I want to do is basically to sell my CDJ1000's, sell the DJM600 Mixer
I kinda go by the ethos of never selling anything musical. I'll sell my TV
and hi-fi before I'll sell an old guitar or amp. You just never know when
you might need it. The CDJ does scratching right? There's one good
reason why you might need it in future..... and the mixer is sure to come
in handy, you may want to externally mix Live with something else
without putting the "something else" into Live as an input.

Live can do a lot of stuff, but it isn't always a replacement for all your
external gear, depending on what you need to do.

beatmatching = warping.... Once you set the warpmarkers on the beats
everything is beatmatched to the midi tempo, you can have 20 things
going at once all in perfect sync.

Most of what you're asking is terminology stuff..... Unlike some other
programs Live isn't designed to mimic 2 1200's and a DJ mixer.... It's a
*lot* more then that, hence everything has names which mean more then
just "beatmatching" or "cue".

-Ben

AdamJay
Posts: 4757
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Indianapolis, USA

Post by AdamJay » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:33 am

- Crossfader?

to the right, under the Master volume fader
if you do not see it, go to View - Crossfader.
you can put some channels on a and some on b, you crossfade between A and B channels

- channels/kill switches?

the channels are the vertical tracks, i.e. "1 Audio, 2 Audio", etc.
Kill swtiches, look at EQ3, the highligted "L , M , H" buttons are for killing low, mids, and highs

- simply beatmatching 2 tracks?

you cannot simply beatmatch 2 tracks.
to get material to play in sync with other material - you have to manually warp it yourself and set the warp points yourself.
refer to these forum threads for that information:
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=62748
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14035

- listening to channel 1 on headphones, and channel 2 through monitors?

as Drush said, you need an audio card with 2 stereo outputs, or you can send mono to your monitors and mono to your headphones. its all in the manual.

when you are done with the manual, invest $23 into this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846

it's actually verrrrry well written. You will learn more in 1 week reading this than you will in 2 months browsing these forums.
learning Live is just as much fun as using Live
:D
Last edited by AdamJay on Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

supster
Posts: 2133
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:26 am
Location: Orlando FL

Post by supster » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:34 am

drush wrote: ...maven batman utility belt bullshit integrated firewire/audio/midi/nuclear command center .....

yeah? its a pretty nice fucken maven batman utility belt bullshit integrated firewire/audio/midi/nuclear command center! :lol:
--
NEW SPECS: Athlon 4200+ dual; A8N-SLI m/b; Win XP Home SP2; 1 GB RAM; 2x 7200 RPM HDD: 1 internal, 1 Firewire 800 (Firewire is project data drive); M-Audio Triggerfinger

josh 'vonster' von; tracks and sets
http://www.joshvon.com

dCross
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:01 pm
Location: Ableton NY
Contact:

Post by dCross » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 am

supster wrote:
drc24 wrote:.
.
.
he's pretty much saying: its not that easy ;)

.
Thanks supster - it's not often that I go into rant mode, but when I do, I can't stop blabbing :wink:

supster
Posts: 2133
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:26 am
Location: Orlando FL

Post by supster » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:40 am

drc24 wrote:
supster wrote:
drc24 wrote:.
.
.
he's pretty much saying: its not that easy ;)

.
Thanks supster - it's not often that I go into rant mode, but when I do, I can't stop blabbing :wink:
hehe

been there done that

.
--
NEW SPECS: Athlon 4200+ dual; A8N-SLI m/b; Win XP Home SP2; 1 GB RAM; 2x 7200 RPM HDD: 1 internal, 1 Firewire 800 (Firewire is project data drive); M-Audio Triggerfinger

josh 'vonster' von; tracks and sets
http://www.joshvon.com

drush
Posts: 1282
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:40 am
Location: Venice, CA
Contact:

Post by drush » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:52 am

supster wrote:
drush wrote: ...maven batman utility belt bullshit integrated firewire/audio/midi/nuclear command center .....

yeah? its a pretty nice fucken maven batman utility belt bullshit integrated firewire/audio/midi/nuclear command center! :lol:
sure it is. but when you can plug in 1 midi controller and take a line directly out of your powerbook...

AdamJay
Posts: 4757
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Indianapolis, USA

Post by AdamJay » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:53 am

drc24 wrote: our friendly tech-god AdamJay
:oops: :oops:
gee thanks!

wait a second... WHO YOU CALLING FRIENDLY!!!?? :evil:
Go RTFM!!! :twisted:

drush
Posts: 1282
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:40 am
Location: Venice, CA
Contact:

Post by drush » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:11 am

drc24 wrote:I think you're one of the first (of many) DJs that are going to come stumbling onto this forum looking for ways to ditch their equipment and go "Live" after seeing what Sasha did. Now don't take that as offense, I'm actually a big Sasha fan myself, and like how he's popularizing this version of digital DJing (he is by FAR not the first to do this, by the way).

A warning, though: you've stumbled onto a community of music producers. Some of them (like our friendly tech-god AdamJay) started out DJing, then moved to production. I myself am a much stronger DJ than producer.

But many of the people here are music producers to the bone, and have certain opinions about Sasha, about DJs, and about dance music. Some of them think that Sasha is a complete hack that plays terrible music. Some of them think that DJs as a whole are idiots that don't have the talent to play their own music. Some of them think that dance music is too commercial, that a high and mighty tool like Ableton Live is only for making music for people with ecletic tastes.
just for the sake of... i dunno, something... i'm probably a producer first but i'm certainly a dj, or someone who has been playing techno forever. my issue with sasha isn't "dance music", it's that i don't like what he does. and the fact that due so heavily to the aforementioned Marketing, so many people equate Sasha with Dance Music, and vice versa. so i'm light years from thinking that djs are idiots or even that sasha is a hack really.. it's just that he plays crap music (to me).
drc24 wrote:This also means that Ableton Live has the same learning curve as a traditional Virtual Studio (think Cubase/Logic/etc.)

i really have to disagree. no, it's not easy. or for purposes of this conversation, it's not traktor. but live is infinitely easier to learn than logic or cubase. and the resources available to learn it are also infinitely better.
drc24 wrote:In terms of your hardware question - some Mac users have had some trouble with M-Audio products recently, I think with the Firewire interfaces. There are a ton of options out there, but for an affordable alternative to M-audio, you may want to look into Echo Audio's Indigo line (http://www.echoaudio.com).
also, since you said you have the 15" powerbook, you have another option in the echo indigo dj pcmcia card. plus, if your I/O requirements are just a stereo out and a prelisten channel there's really no reason you can't use a USB sound card.

i'll also say that once you get your tracks warped correctly you may find that prelisten becomes not very important. i just about never do it any more. in which case the built-in mac soundcard is totally workable.

rengel
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:32 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by rengel » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:14 am

Lads, you're the best!

I appreciate everyone's feedback/comments on this post :D
I think my next steps will be just to play with Live for a while, get my head around how it works, read tutorials (as mentioned by you guys below). I'll invest in that :idea:

Does anyone have any pic's of their current setup? Would love to see some.

In relation to the Audio Card, which one is the one you would go for, and why?
(I'm trying to get my head around, WHY I would actually need one of these.. )

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_gb/F ... -main.html ??

I have the equip (well laptop anyway), motivation and capability....
I just need to LEEARNN. (and listen ofcourse)

Anyone here in Melbourne, Australia?

rengel
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:32 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by rengel » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:24 am

drush wrote:
drc24 wrote:I think you're one of the first (of many) DJs that are going to come stumbling onto this forum looking for ways to ditch their equipment and go "Live" after seeing what Sasha did. Now don't take that as offense, I'm actually a big Sasha fan myself, and like how he's popularizing this version of digital DJing (he is by FAR not the first to do this, by the way).

A warning, though: you've stumbled onto a community of music producers. Some of them (like our friendly tech-god AdamJay) started out DJing, then moved to production. I myself am a much stronger DJ than producer.

But many of the people here are music producers to the bone, and have certain opinions about Sasha, about DJs, and about dance music. Some of them think that Sasha is a complete hack that plays terrible music. Some of them think that DJs as a whole are idiots that don't have the talent to play their own music. Some of them think that dance music is too commercial, that a high and mighty tool like Ableton Live is only for making music for people with ecletic tastes.
just for the sake of... i dunno, something... i'm probably a producer first but i'm certainly a dj, or someone who has been playing techno forever. my issue with sasha isn't "dance music", it's that i don't like what he does. and the fact that due so heavily to the aforementioned Marketing, so many people equate Sasha with Dance Music, and vice versa. so i'm light years from thinking that djs are idiots or even that sasha is a hack really.. it's just that he plays crap music (to me).
drc24 wrote:This also means that Ableton Live has the same learning curve as a traditional Virtual Studio (think Cubase/Logic/etc.)

i really have to disagree. no, it's not easy. or for purposes of this conversation, it's not traktor. but live is infinitely easier to learn than logic or cubase. and the resources available to learn it are also infinitely better.
drc24 wrote:In terms of your hardware question - some Mac users have had some trouble with M-Audio products recently, I think with the Firewire interfaces. There are a ton of options out there, but for an affordable alternative to M-audio, you may want to look into Echo Audio's Indigo line (http://www.echoaudio.com).
also, since you said you have the 15" powerbook, you have another option in the echo indigo dj pcmcia card. plus, if your I/O requirements are just a stereo out and a prelisten channel there's really no reason you can't use a USB sound card.

i'll also say that once you get your tracks warped correctly you may find that prelisten becomes not very important. i just about never do it any more. in which case the built-in mac soundcard is totally workable.
So you're saying you 'warp' (AKA beatmatching <- for my own terminlogy before I get utterly confused) your tracks that you don't need to listen to your cueued track before it comes through the PA? I think I'll just RTFM and get that online amazon guide and start playing :wink:

The only reason I would like an external surface console, is that I still want to feel like I'm using a mixer, twisting knobs, using kill switches, adding effects, etc but I dont want to me using a mouse/keyboard.
That's why I was looking at the Evolution UC33E in conjunction with Evolutions' XSession17.

Post Reply