First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

[leedsquietman]

line level standards are +4dB for pro gear, or -10dB for consumer electronics typically.

Your problems could be down to line level imbalances, impedance mismatches, power issues, grounding issues, or many other potential issues, so trying to get to a venue early and testing out beforehand and having a backup plan (CD-J, Ipod, whatever) is pretty much essential.

[3phase]

welcome to the wonderfull world of no sound checks..

Do you know what went wrong now? i actually dont really.. but its good to know to avoid that in future.

theese dj mixers usually have low level inpiuts.its rather the other problem that your gear is driving them to hot.. was the signal really low or was just the solo metering fucked and you where actually to loud and therfore distorted?

but maybe the desk was mdoified? was ther an extra pannel for the input before the desk?
your cable broken or the connectors to the desk dirty?

the usb interface is working at home fine again i guess?

magic misterys.. on my last gig the 808 bassdrum disappeared.. that was fun.. i had to plug it in a sound card input to get it back because the whole desk was gone... at home everything worked fine again..still don t know why ther was no output of the desk anymore.. i exchanged the cable while the gig was running..that was really tech live... and a very long break

its allways good to have an extra set of cables and adapters with you..

if you are on a mac book you allways can use the internal soundcard.. its better from the latencys and sound than some usb devices out there... but not very hot from the level either..

beside that there are often other inputs you can use in emergency situations with the wright set of adapters..

exept of the phono inputs all of them can be usefull.. effect returns..even the microphon input if there is one.. you just have to get yor level than down very much otherwise it will distort..

[juncmodule]

I went through 4 full rehearsals over the last week

I would recommend always "rehearsing" a live set setup. This is, as you now know, nearly as important as your actual performance rehearsal. I have always tried to compose in the setup I perform in. I even went so far as to purchase a cheap PA system for myself. This allowed me to get my head around sound in performance spaces a little better. Also, I was always amazed how many emergencies I bailed friends out of when they needed my $300 crappy PA system.

Good luck with your next performance. At least you have that stressful "lesson learned" crap out of the way

later,
-junc

[Dalfir]

Phono outputs does not mean an RIAA phono signal. A lot of soundcard use phono outs for line level signals, sounds like it was you switching it to phono mode on the mixer that messed things up. You plugging into THAT mixer was what messed you up somehow, because everything else was the same when you got home and tried again, right?

Thing is, with the signal hitting -0.2dBFS in Live, and the gain on the Nio set to maximum the signal going through to the mixer (when we tried the line inputs) was still way too low. But thanks for clearing up my confusion re line/phono. While up there I quickly googled "Nio 2/4 Outputs" and when seeing "...4 Phono Outputs..." popping up as a result, I figured that meant I needed to go into the phono inputs of the mixer. The closest thing I have to a mixer at home is a Gemini CDM500 CDJ/mixer console I'm going go try run through. Thanks again to everyone for the helpful input.

3 Phase, I tried different cabling and different inputs on the mixer to no avail.

[3phase]

Thing is, with the signal hitting -0.2dBFS in Live, and the gain on the Nio set to maximum the signal going through to the mixer (when we tried the line inputs) was still way too low.

too loud or too low?

you have overdriven the inputs and getting up the fader a little than allways distorted like hell..you wasent able to get the fader full up or even half before it got to loud but the reason for the hazzle was the meter on the desk indicated too low level?

like that?

just a reminder distortion usually means to high level... noise usually means to low level.ö


of cause ther are exeption..but theese are mostly related to equipment failiure.

while with setting up levels, especially with unexperianced people, user error is much more likely.

[Dalfir]

So I just ran my set up through my mixer at home. No issues at all on the Line input. Switching to phono on the mixer reproduced the same distortion so that was obviously my fault, but I just can't understand why the line signal on the DJM was so weak.

[Dalfir]

Thing is, with the signal hitting -0.2dBFS in Live, and the gain on the Nio set to maximum the signal going through to the mixer (when we tried the line inputs) was still way too low.

too loud or too low?

you have overdriven the inputs and getting up the fader a little than allways distorted like hell..you wasent able to get the fader full up or even half before it got to loud but the reason for the hazzle was the meter on the desk indicated too low level?

like that?

just a reminder distortion usually means to high level... noise usually means to low level.ö


of cause ther are exeption..but theese are mostly related to equipment failiure.

while with setting up levels, especially with unexperianced people, user error is much more likely.

Just monitored through headphones on the mixer while the previous DJ was mixing. Too low, barely noticeable on the headphones even turned way up, through the line and too distorted through the phono (which now I know was not the way to go.)

[3phase]

Thing is, with the signal hitting -0.2dBFS in Live, and the gain on the Nio set to maximum the signal going through to the mixer (when we tried the line inputs) was still way too low.

too loud or too low?

you have overdriven the inputs and getting up the fader a little than allways distorted like hell..you wasent able to get the fader full up or even half before it got to loud but the reason for the hazzle was the meter on the desk indicated too low level?

like that?

just a reminder distortion usually means to high level... noise usually means to low level.ö


of cause ther are exeption..but theese are mostly related to equipment failiure.

while with setting up levels, especially with unexperianced people, user error is much more likely.

Just monitored through headphones on the mixer while the previous DJ was mixing. Too low, barely noticeable on the headphones even turned way up, through the line and too distorted through the phono (which now I know was not the way to go.)

with low level problems sometimes the headphone out of the soundcard can deliver more than the lines.. so having an adapter for that one with you is also a good thing.. is in reverse the same one you need to acces som stereo fx returns on certain desks

[Dalfir]

Good tip, thanks! I also have 2 headphone outs on my card, which makes this a lot more feasible.

[synnack]

we all agree that having a soundcheck is ideal but not always possible. However "show up early before it opens" and a "soundcheck" are not the same thing.

If you show up early there will likely be nobody around who can fire up the P.A. and patch you into it. Usually clubs pay extra for sound people to show up early. They're often paid by the hour. Some venues have DJ or Jukebox shit going on during the day. And they won't let you play through the P.A. anyway until a certain time before the show.

I've played at clubs that are next to other, retail types of business that say they have an arrangement with the neighbors not to have any loud sound during normal business hours and even though the promoter told me to show up at noon, i couldn't do anything until after 5pm.

So really what you want is a soundcheck, which is where it is arranged in advance, that someone will be there when you actually go early and that it is ok to test your stuff before doors open for the show. Most people assume that soundchecks are about getting the levels right between multiple musicians on stage. When it's just one guy and a laptop, they then think there's no need for a soundcheck. However, as you can see, that's short sighted.

Just negotiate it before hand that you can get in early and that somebody will be there to let you try your setup through the P.A.

Number 1 rule of playing live. DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING.

[Kent_in_CO]

I've dealt with the problem too, and wound up having to push my mixer output in Live to the max. I had enough signal, but it sounded shite. Nobody other than me really noticed the poor quality, but it still sucks when you can't get into your groove because you hate the way you sound.

When it comes to bypassing club mixer issues altogether, there's been cases where I had to patch directly into the club's sound system. Usually this means you'll need XLR adaptors. The downside is that you'll have a gap in the sound while switching from the previous DJ, thereby losing the ability to smoothly transition.

Regarding the line vs. phono thing...Assuming your soundcard outputs a line level signal, is there any situation where you'd want to use the mixer's phono ins? Or is it a best practice to simply pretend those inputs don't exist, and always use line?

[oblique strategies]

I had an M-Audio Quattro USB I/O back in the early 2000's. That thing was a nightmare. It would work fine at home, then I'd take it to a gig & it would crap out on me. It would trick me because it would then work fine at home for months. I'd think that it was OK, take it to the next gig & the same thing would happen! I finally got rid of it.

It was one of those mysterious problems that I just couldn't effectively troubleshoot, the only answer was replacement.

You handled the situation like a trooper, well done. Just remember to keep your cool, & have a backup plan. These things happen.

[M. F. Ruckus]

Does anyone know what the max volume output for the Novation is? Couldn't seem to find it on their site.

I had the same problem as the OP with my M-Audio Fast Track Ultra. The problem for me with this card was the max output volume was only +1.8dBV, unbalanced. In order to get it loud enough, I would have to crank up the gain and the eq's on the mixer, but doing that would cause a lot of artifacts in the sound.

I'm just wondering if the Novations signal isn't hot enough to drive a club system?

[kristoffer1989]

phono is for turntables right?
Then the impedance would be wrong and you schould have used the "line" instead. Just what i think.

[sdmiddleton]

“Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm.” – Winston Churchill

So tonight was in effect something I'd been working towards for the last three years. My first real live set. For the last few weeks I'd been totally shirking college responsibility, putting essays and projects on hold so I could solely concentrate on this event. I'd spent days putting together a set incorporating my iPod Touch and NanoKontrol. I went through 4 full rehearsals over the last week and I was having no problems whatsoever.

I get to the event, with about forty minutes to my set I get on stage and start setting up. There was a multi-plug adapter right next to me, no hassles plugging in. My fears of pulling out a cable for a CDJ or mixer (my biggest fear at the point) were moot because there was a separate adapter for live equipment. I thought that I'd have everything set up in a few minutes and could go get a drink and give the DJ some space to finish his set before I came back.

Everything seemed great, Live was running flawlessly my NanoKontrol was working perfectly. My Novation Nio 2/4 wasn't giving issues in the headphones. Monitoring the signal straight from the box on my headphones, the signal was crystal clear. I was so excited.

Then things went pear shaped.

Using RCA connectors, I plugged into the mixer, A Pioneer DJM600 which, ironically, is one of my favorites for DJ sets. I asked the DJ if I could quickly check the signal with his headphones seeing as he had a good six minutes to his next mix. Shock. The signal was low. Very, very very low. With the gain on the mixer set to full, only two green lights were barely flashing on the mixer's meters. My heart sank but then with total relief I realised "Shit, the Nio has Phono outputs. Wow, that could have been embarrassing." So - and I still have about half an hour till my set now - I quickly swapped the inputs on the mixer from Line to Phono thinking everything would be peachy.

Nope.

The signal going into the mixer was one of the dirtiest, most distorted noises I've ever had the displeasure of experiencing. My god, it was horrible. The bass sounded like a hollow shell, the kick was more distorted than the most intense Gabba track - and this was for a Psytrance set, by the way. The gain pot on my Nio seemed to have absolutely no effect on the signal going into the mixer. The gain set at 9 o clock on the mixer was still pushing the mixer so far into the red I was expecting flickering bars to start flying out the back. Even with the gain set nearly to infinity, the signal was still horribly distorted. There was absolutely no way I could make anyone put up with even 16 bars of that, it'd probably be against the Geneva convention.

I called the event organiser over and we tried sorting things out (this all over another poor DJ trying to play his set with two people clambering over his shoulders.)

We tried different channels on the mixer, we tried different cables, we continuously switched between phono and line on the mixer in case by some act of God, the architecture of the hardware would suddenly accommodate me.

I rebooted three times.

By now I'm down to the last five or so minutes of this guy's set before I need to get things going. I can't think of a situation more sickening for a DJ then watching the remaining time on a CDJ tick down while wiping the sweat off your brow and wondering what the fuck you're going to do. It is seriously the kind of thing I've honestly had nightmares about. This entire night was literally a nightmare come true.

There is a somewhat happy ending though. As I was leaving home, laptop slung over my shoulder, a voice - a very quiet one - inside urged me to grab some CDs just in case Plan A failed. So in the last 15 seconds before my set started, I flung a CD into the CDJ and played a DJ set that I didn't enjoy in the slightest. For the whole (lengthy) drive home I've been stressing over the fact that I don't know how I can be booked as a live act with the heavy burden of knowing that this could happen again and not having any idea as to why.

Does anyone have any answers or suggestions? Really one of the most disappointing things I've experienced in a long time which is so sad because it was a seriously rocking party. I have to thank the enthusiastic crowd who didn't seem to care one way or the other what was being played as long as there was doof and it sounded good.

Any advice would be very, very appreciated and encouraging, like a big fuzzy hug. Please excuse the lengthy post, but it's somewhat cathartic for me at the moment.