groove extraction useless?

[nowtime]

Live has tempo mapping.

groove is an amazing tool, it's easy to use.

play a loose funky bassline or whatever by hand, no quantization. then play heavily quantized drums over it. extract the groove from your loose bassline take and apply it to the drums. insta-magic.

Great idea, tone.

[nathannn]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8465499507#

here is one of the most simplest explanations i could find of tempo mapping.

you really have to pay attention to what he is doing so you dont confuse it with warping.

Hes to slow for me, I loose concentration.. (its late) It seems very similar to how Live does it: warp a track, and use it as the master tempo grid.

But I still don't get what you guys are looking for here?

he does drag it on a bit.
also the way sonar handles tempo mapping is kinda retarded but its the only software i have found that lets you tempo map
the sub divisions of a beat.

im thinking about making my own video to explain how to do this in reaper since there isn't a video..

basically instead of warping a track to fit a time line you warp the time line to fit the track.

[flippo]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8465499507#

here is one of the most simplest explanations i could find of tempo mapping.

you really have to pay attention to what he is doing so you dont confuse it with warping.

Hes to slow for me, I loose concentration.. (its late) It seems very similar to how Live does it: warp a track, and use it as the master tempo grid.

But I still don't get what you guys are looking for here?

he does drag it on a bit.
also the way sonar handles tempo mapping is kinda retarded but its the only software i have found that lets you tempo map
the sub divisions of a beat.

im thinking about making my own video to explain how to do this in reaper since there isn't a video..

basically instead of warping a track to fit a time line you warp the time line to fit the track.

that's how it worked up to live 7. You can get the same results though, yeah? just the other side of the same coin is it not?

[Tone Deft]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8465499507#

here is one of the most simplest explanations i could find of tempo mapping.

you really have to pay attention to what he is doing so you dont confuse it with warping.

Hes to slow for me, I loose concentration.. (its late) It seems very similar to how Live does it: warp a track, and use it as the master tempo grid.

But I still don't get what you guys are looking for here?

skip to 5:45 to see what's up.

nathannn, thanks for taking the time to explain.

the first part of the technique is like Live's warping but Sonar goes on to show you a graph of how you slowed down and sped up the different parts of the track.

interesting, dunno how or if I'd use the information, I'd have to try it to say for sure.

[nathannn]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8465499507#

here is one of the most simplest explanations i could find of tempo mapping.

you really have to pay attention to what he is doing so you dont confuse it with warping.

Hes to slow for me, I loose concentration.. (its late) It seems very similar to how Live does it: warp a track, and use it as the master tempo grid.

But I still don't get what you guys are looking for here?

skip to 5:45 to see what's up.

nathannn, thanks for taking the time to explain.

the first part of the technique is like Live's warping but Sonar goes on to show you a graph of how you slowed down and sped up the different parts of the track.

interesting, dunno how or if I'd use the information, I'd have to try it to say for sure.

i dont think you got it yet

here is a much simpler video... this time done in cubase..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ3HxiSf ... re=related

this video is only a minutte or so long and gets straight to the point

[nathannn]

remember with tempo mapping the audio stays the same (no warping happens and the track keeps its original sloppy tempo) the only thing that changes is now the metronome plays along to the sloppy track and you can add midi drums that will fit with the sloppy track.


i will make a video tomorrow doing this in reaper and post it in a new thread.

[flippo]

remember with tempo mapping the audio stays the same (no warping happens and the track keeps its original sloppy tempo) the only thing that changes is now the metronome plays along to the sloppy track and you can add midi drums that will fit with the sloppy track.


i will make a video tomorrow doing this in reaper and post it in a new thread.

ok that makes more sense.

[ze2be]

remember with tempo mapping the audio stays the same (no warping happens and the track keeps its original sloppy tempo) the only thing that changes is now the metronome plays along to the sloppy track and you can add midi drums that will fit with the sloppy track.

To me, it looks and sounds almost identical to how Live does it. Mind you, I havent done this since the very first 8 version came out. (a year ago already?) Tried to reproduce it now, but im to tired. And I couldn't find it in the manual.

mañana, mañana!!



edit: added "almost"

[hoffman2k]

So what is the difference with making an audio track the tempo master? Are guys going on about the master/slave feature we got in Live 5 or 6?

[UKRuss]

If you played say a guitar part all the way through in arrange view it woudl be one clip right? if you extracted the groove from the clip does the 'groove map' remains as long as the original clip it was taken from?

if so then you can add midi drums and impose the extracted groove and it would map to the tempo of your guitar part throughout the song.

Granted the metronome doesnt follow the guitar part and I have no idea how accurate groove extraction is over a long part.

The thing I dont like about the groove function currently is the clunky integration with Live.

You drag in a session drum kit, lets say. Then you programme your beat by draing it into the piano roll so everything is 100% quantized. You want to humanize so you load up a groove and use the random function. but this applies the randmisation to all voices in the clip so two hits, say kick and snare, used to hit at the same time now hit with some random groove and therefore flam.

So, to correct this you must extract the snare to a new track and apply the groove there leaving the kick behind ungrooved. This ciould work if you want some lazy snare type effect, but if what you after is randomisation for the human feel it still doesnt work as you get that flamming that a human drummer simply wouldnt do, they might deliberately drag the snare but the kick and snare would still hit together.

To do this you would then need to go back to your extracted snare commit the groove, extract the committed groove as a new groove and apply it to the kick, which would now also need to be extracted from the main kit....and so on.

Clunky, albeit ultimately workable in some way...

There must be an easier way.

[jhartford]

So what is the difference with making an audio track the tempo master? Are guys going on about the master/slave feature we got in Live 5 or 6?

yeah - that is exactly what live does when you use a track as tempo master...

try it: record something with a varying tempo - something like those pieces in the video. Warp it (we don't actually warp the track - ie on time stretching - its just so we have tempo data)... you can probably press quantize for most pieces and then just correct that (much quicker workflow than both the cubase and sonar methods). Then in arrange change the track from slave to master (its a button under the warp button where you turn warping on and off). Then the tempo changes according to the changes in tempo in that track and that track isn't warped... you even get that tempo graph that you get in sonar and cubase...

[jhartford]

oh and obviously the click track does follow your tempo, etc... also cause its a live clip if the groove stays the same over the song you can just duplicate that clip for as long as the song is... so kind like a master groove.

[UKRuss]

I did not know that. Excellent!

(my groove pool grumbles still stand)

[hoffman2k]

oh and obviously the click track does follow your tempo, etc... also cause its a live clip if the groove stays the same over the song you can just duplicate that clip for as long as the song is... so kind like a master groove.

Yeah. I'm aware of the feature and what it does. Its a by-product from video support in Live. Thanks for explaining though!
So another thread sidetracked for a feature request that has been there for years.

In regards to the original post. I remember a post from Amaury where he explains the logic behind groove extraction. But like many things, it got lost in the noise. I'll see if I get lucky with the search function.

[Grappadura]

interesting stuff, thanks for elaborating guys! what I´m basically ranting about is the transient detection when extracting a groove. The same sound will sometimes be detected right where it begins, and sometimes a bit later. You can drag the groove clip into a midi clip, and put it right under the waveform, that way you see where live recognized the transients. If you do this, I´d recommend leaving the track unwarped and match its tempo in the master tempo. Now you will have all the downbeats on the grid, if the tempo of the song you are analyzing is straight on its quarter notes (usually the case in techno). Yet the groove clip has not all the downbeats on the grid, because the transient detection is not good enough. Some are on the grid, others arent (might depend on the song you are analyzing).