groove extraction useless?

[jhartford]

interesting stuff, thanks for elaborating guys! what I´m basically ranting about is the transient detection when extracting a groove. The same sound will sometimes be detected right where it begins, and sometimes a bit later. You can drag the groove clip into a midi clip, and put it right under the waveform, that way you see where live recognized the transients. If you do this, I´d recommend leaving the track unwarped and match its tempo in the master tempo. Now you will have all the downbeats on the grid, if the tempo of the song you are analyzing is straight on its quarter notes (usually the case in techno). Yet the groove clip has not all the downbeats on the grid, because the transient detection is not good enough. Some are on the grid, others arent (might depend on the song you are analyzing).

Transient detection isn't an easy thing and there's no doubt it can be improved - but that doesn't make groove extraction useless... its easy to go in an edit the transient markers before extracting a groove... Just shift+drag them to where they should be and delete the ones that shouldn't be there (opt/alt+double click) or create new ones (again opt/alt+double click)... then once you've got them where they need to be extract the groove....

This video doesn't cover that part of the workflow but it is a good look into how useful groove extraction can be...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6C_ZhJM ... r_embedded

also I think it actually has the most value when working with live drummers, etc who have a good feel for groove - get them to lay down a good loop and then extract that for your song.

[Grappadura]

Transient detection isn't an easy thing and there's no doubt it can be improved - but that doesn't make groove extraction useless... its easy to go in an edit the transient markers before extracting a groove... Just shift+drag them to where they should be and delete the ones that shouldn't be there (opt/alt+double click) or create new ones (again opt/alt+double click)... then once you've got them where they need to be extract the groove....

This video doesn't cover that part of the workflow but it is a good look into how useful groove extraction can be...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6C_ZhJM ... r_embedded

also I think it actually has the most value when working with live drummers, etc who have a good feel for groove - get them to lay down a good loop and then extract that for your song.

thx , shift-dragging the transient markers is cool stuff!

[WaveRider]

Live has tempo mapping.

groove is an amazing tool, it's easy to use.

play a loose funky bassline or whatever by hand, no quantization. then play heavily quantized drums over it. extract the groove from your loose bassline take and apply it to the drums. insta-magic.

+1 lovely groove tool!!!!!

[nathannn]

So what is the difference with making an audio track the tempo master? Are guys going on about the master/slave feature we got in Live 5 or 6?

yeah - that is exactly what live does when you use a track as tempo master...

try it: record something with a varying tempo - something like those pieces in the video. Warp it (we don't actually warp the track - ie on time stretching - its just so we have tempo data)... you can probably press quantize for most pieces and then just correct that (much quicker workflow than both the cubase and sonar methods). Then in arrange change the track from slave to master (its a button under the warp button where you turn warping on and off). Then the tempo changes according to the changes in tempo in that track and that track isn't warped... you even get that tempo graph that you get in sonar and cubase...

this is what i get everytime i have tried to tempo map with your method


pretty much nothing..

also with your method of tempo mapping. say after you have mapped out the tempo, now you add a midi track.. are the grid lines going to be in sync with the master track so you can correctly place hits on transients?

[nathannn]

i hope im not coming off as a dick..
this is seriously something i would like to figure out how to do in live...
it would be great if it really is possible..

[anybody human]

One great use for Groove is avoiding phase. 2 drum tracks say acoustic kit & drum machine, for lining up the kicks thus avoiding phase cancelations. Also, I like to extract the groove from something I played in on pads (Trigger Finger, MPD etc.) and then drag that groove to a empty midi track to edit it. I find Groove works well in combination with playing in beats by hand, drawing beats, quantise to a percentage (click loop brace, command A select all, shift command U) and editing by hand (command 4 toggle grid on/off).

[ze2be]

in arrange change the track from slave to master (its a button under the warp button where you turn warping on and off).

Thanks guys! Im so rusty on this future. (slaps forehead) It was there, right in front of my nose! In fact I seem to remember Live was the first sequencer to have it..

@Nathannn: you just need to add more warp markers! You only have one there.

[nathannn]

omg .... im a fucking idiot!

how did i miss this..

lol...


for so many years.. how did i miss this?

[mr.ergonomics]

nathannn, your punishment is to do one great track next week