Electronic music live on stage, what is the point!

Sinjin · Post by **Sinjin** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:33 pm

im going to tell you that i cant stand either of them but that has nothign to do with their ability

now back to the topic, ive always loved this pic:

this is my favorite example of someone doing something absolutely dreary to watch but making it look fun.

mikemc · Post by **mikemc** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:21 pm

this is me playing in a local park to dozens of enthralled onlookers last week... what's not exciting about this??

seriously, though, had a lot of rented wattage pumping many individually tracked instruments, did some live clip dropping into completely blank sets with improvisation over top, some mostly pre-assembled sets with improvisation over, some completely pre-assembled sets with effects tweaking and on the fly editing here an there.

Mostly, it was well received, but there was a sense that people were like -- "ok... so it's just, uh, you?"-- people seem to tend to prefer an assortment of folk onstage, even if they are minimally involved, regardless of the intricacy of the sounds they are hearing. Also, I would've like to have done projected graphics from a visualizer, it was too bright for that. I really like the idea of being able to sit and watch these, just chilling out.

I had fun though, and my kids liked it when I said "hi" from the stage

(edit) and yes, if you do the A:B comparison of Mr. Rhymes and myself... well; the whole "worth a 1000 words" thing...

then again, i'm not *quite* as prepared for offblast as some

nunrgguy · Post by **nunrgguy** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:02 pm

I think part of the problem is the way people are wired up. There are as far as I know three types of people at the extreme - visual types, audio types, and touchy feely types. We're all a mix of all 3 but most people have a stronger bias towards the visual. Whereas, being musicians I guess most people on this board have an audio bias. I did a test for this and my scores were something like 11 Audio, 8 Visual, 3, Kinesthetic.

How often do you hear the phrase (which drives me mad) 'I went to SEE such and such a DJ' - see, (see). Even in the post dance era most people still expect some kind of a visual show, even if they should be there for the music because they are wired up to only understand things fully once their brains have turned it all into pictures.....Mention a PA to your average clubber and they expect something more than a DJ (or someone with a laptop) - they're expecting a show, something different from the norm, a visual element to the performance, even though I remember at one time a PA was something entirely different (a club showcase for an act, usually with a singer singing live over a prerecorded backing track).

If it's just a guy with a laptop and a funny little mixer how is it any different (to the punter) than a DJ?

hacktheplanet · Post by **hacktheplanet** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:26 am

Well there are plenty of electronic acts who fake it live. We saw Chemical Brothers, Junkie XL, the Prodigy, and Swayzak at Coachella. I think that the Chems may have been faking it a little bit, (backing tracks), but it seemed as though they did their fair share of actual playing. The Prodigy looked real enough. They had a guitarist, a drummer, two MCs, and of course Liam in the background with a huge fucking rig. Junkie XL was playing off a MC-909, so he was probably doing it halfway for the most part.

Swayzak was a different story. I've seen them twice. Once at Chop Suey here in Seattle, and the other time at Coachella. They were definitely NOT faking it. How could I tell? Because of the fuck-ups! Heh, they made a few mistakes, and you could tell that the levels weren't perfect, but goddamn Swayzak puts on a good show. At Chop Suey they had the main two guys, on on the mixer and an MPC, and the other guy on a PowerBook. Then a drummer on some V-Drums, and a singer.

Same with Way Out West, who we saw at Freak Night 2004. They had a few screw-ups, but pulled them off pretty easily. They were running two computers with Live, and a few other instruments, and of course the vocalist.

So there are groups who fake it and groups who don't. I personally don't fake it when I play out. I want to follow Swayzak's improvish approach to performing. It feels more spontaneous and real, even moreso than DJing.

Of course, it's hard to put on a show with just a laptop and a mixer. At LEAST have a MIDI controller of some sort. As for me, I have a big rack full of blinking lights, two synths, my iBook, and a controller. It's a small setup, but I think it looks 100x better than a pair of turntables or just a computer.

Live PA baby.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:29 am

* message deleted to protect the innocent
if you saw this - please forget it.

scottorlans · Post by **scottorlans** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:37 pm

[quote="mosca"] they were using MS20 controllers (2 of them) and they were both plugged in. as was the MS2000 the Korg Trinitron and the roland drum pads all running thru a makie cfx12 with some boss pedals - all plugged in [/quote]

Yes this is absolutely correct. The single cord coming out of them is the USB cable! Royksopp is the most humble and down to earth band you can imagine. These guys are in it for the pure fun of creating music and sharing it with people. Of course, two guys can't create everything live, so there are some backing tracks. But everything you see them doing is real, from knob twisting to singing to playing lines on the keyboard to drumming. There is no way these hard working, honest artists would ever play-act on stage, and it's an insult to say otherwise. I agree 100% that faking it onstage is one of the lamest things someone can do, but keep the accusations to those who actually deserve it...

conny · Post by **conny** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:06 pm

Music may be a performance art or sounds in the elevator.
I visited the Loopfestival in Zurich and the thing here is that people, like Per Boysen, have to stomp on foot controllers or actually play the flute etc so that things will happen.
One perfomer had some initial problems getting sound out of his gear and that's what it's about - it's happening now, in front of us, in this room.

Again: theatre or a video tape.

Important: The presence (faked or not), the "here and now".

What I want to feel: The choices made, the turns when things might have gone into other directions, the effort, time and work.
And this may be present in any form of art, it's partly up to me, my sensibility, to get near to it.

A DJ doing his/her job may produce that essence too, I'm not judging the tools.

// C

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:25 pm

incinereight wrote: In an electronic live show ... one person can only play one thing at a time ... just like in a "real" band ... my usual live arrangements have 20+ things going on .. I can only play a few live ...
.

That is not totally true. The greatest thing about Live for me is the ability to do live looping with real instruments, with loops on seperate tracks. My duo does all live tunes--absolutely zero pre-recorded clips. Songs start with silence and me listening to the click on headphones, then looping a bass or keyboard part, then playing and looping more parts, then playing a DrumKat triggering drum sounds in FL Studio 4, recording and looping in the step seq. All the while the other member of this duo plays guitar. After about 2 minutes, once I have 3-5 loops going and a full five tracks of drum sounds, I start mixing things in and out, tweaking stuff with lots of effects, doing gratuitous bass solos, etc.

Sure, its not as polished or "non-loopy" as if I had played our studio tracks and made faces and stroked knobs, but I fully agree with Angstrom--if you're going to play the cuts off your album or remixes done in the studio, you should do it on the radio, not "live". If you do it live anyway, at least don't insult the musicians in the audience who paid to see you "play" by doing a bunch of fake shit--that is more insulting and way worse than lip-syncing boy bands. Keep it real for chrissake, and if some of these groups got into Ableton Live they could at least "mix" it up a bit and actually be doing something on stage other than head bobs and knob strokes. There really is nothing I hate to see more at a show than faking like your doing something that you're not, it is soooo patronizing of your audience, do they think people aren't smart enought to realize?

I think the answer to this issue is right here in front of us--Ableton Live, with lots of midi controllers and some real instruments. There are definitely a few acts really pushing the envelope using Live as an instrument, not just a playback mechanism or laptop turntable--Live is it's own thing, and if you embrace the possibilities, live performances with it can be very hands on without any faking.

Ryan

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:08 pm

The guy who introduced me to breaks (back when) was constantly doing what he called "faking the funk"... He would produce tracks in Cubase or logic or something, then export four sub-groups of full length audio tracks.

These would be recorded into a Roland SP-808, where he would play his tracks, and trigger hooks and stuff on the 16 pads, mixing the 4 sub-groups he wrote in software...

Then, he would mix tracks on a second Roland SP-808, doing the same thing.

To him, it was cheating cause he wasn't beatmatching, nor playing an instrument. Oddly enough though, he was "mixing" 8 audio tracks plus one shot samples he triggered manually, unquantized. To me, when I met him, he was the "real deal".

I however, would program everything in midi, then run patterns using a Roland JX-305 (a keyboard MC-505) controlling better sounding synths. Because my data was midi rather than audio, and I only had patterns written, that I triggered (with quantization), he thought I was the real deal.

Funny, but each of us thought the other was doing it more "live". That said, he was a fucking top notch showman... He would move his entire body when he moved a filter knob - he would "walk around it", doing the fricking moon-walk or something. A good show. Unnecessary to the music, but good showmanship.

Live 4.0 has changed my music performance style - today I start with an empty set and start creating midi clips on the fly and consolidating audio. Shame I've given up on gigging, but now it's about jamming with some local amigos on the weekend, and that's it.

Honestly, the DAT warriors who "fake the funk" are irrelevant - but I think that as long as the musician him or herself is satisfied that they are taking risks and playing live, they can hold their heads up with more traditional instrumentalists. When the guitarist complains that you're up there doing nothing, bring him behind the stage and show him what you do, what you're triggering, and what the effects are. If you're legit, he'll figure it out and you'll get the respect that a lot of electronic musicians don't get from the more traditional instrumentalists. The dudes I jam with consider me a musician of equal calibre to them, and it's cool.

Sinjin · Post by **Sinjin** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:00 am

ive been avoiding forums fpr the last couple of months due to a desire to avoid the big digital penis size war that is normally going on, so iwas initially tempted to ignore the notification about this thread in my inbox. however im glad i read this. good post monty. i found this to be very encouraging.

montrealbreaks wrote:The guy who introduced me to breaks (back when) was constantly doing what he called "faking the funk"... He would produce tracks in Cubase or logic or something, then export four sub-groups of full length audio tracks.

These would be recorded into a Roland SP-808, where he would play his tracks, and trigger hooks and stuff on the 16 pads, mixing the 4 sub-groups he wrote in software...

Then, he would mix tracks on a second Roland SP-808, doing the same thing.

To him, it was cheating cause he wasn't beatmatching, nor playing an instrument. Oddly enough though, he was "mixing" 8 audio tracks plus one shot samples he triggered manually, unquantized. To me, when I met him, he was the "real deal".

I however, would program everything in midi, then run patterns using a Roland JX-305 (a keyboard MC-505) controlling better sounding synths. Because my data was midi rather than audio, and I only had patterns written, that I triggered (with quantization), he thought I was the real deal.

Funny, but each of us thought the other was doing it more "live". That said, he was a fucking top notch showman... He would move his entire body when he moved a filter knob - he would "walk around it", doing the fricking moon-walk or something. A good show. Unnecessary to the music, but good showmanship.

Live 4.0 has changed my music performance style - today I start with an empty set and start creating midi clips on the fly and consolidating audio. Shame I've given up on gigging, but now it's about jamming with some local amigos on the weekend, and that's it.

Honestly, the DAT warriors who "fake the funk" are irrelevant - but I think that as long as the musician him or herself is satisfied that they are taking risks and playing live, they can hold their heads up with more traditional instrumentalists. When the guitarist complains that you're up there doing nothing, bring him behind the stage and show him what you do, what you're triggering, and what the effects are. If you're legit, he'll figure it out and you'll get the respect that a lot of electronic musicians don't get from the more traditional instrumentalists. The dudes I jam with consider me a musician of equal calibre to them, and it's cool.

Ambioun - Techno Man · Post by **Ambioun - Techno Man** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:33 am

I think that the arguement that "electronic music is not music" is invalid. This maybe be off topic but I have to bring up recent experiances.

I was having a discussion with a friend and his arguement is that "When a band plays, they require talent and skill, and just pushing buttons is not a performance." He also went on to say that "Any gayass son-of-a bitch can figure out electronic boxes and run them."

I went on with this arguement...

1- You play guitar so you don't have a perspective on the skill required to manage 30 or 40 different parts not to mention the live arranging, mixing, keyboard playing, and other things that anyone else would consider non-work.
2- Just saying electronic music is not music discounts you as an artist because real artists respect all forms of art, synthetic or non-synthetic.
3- You can't say a form of music is easy and any quote "gayass son-of-a bitch" can do it because you can't do it.
4- Your arguement that techno is "pre-recorded" is just showing that the music that you listened to in gym class when you were in public school is your definition of techno.
5- You are a bad guitar player.

Ok forget that last one. But people need to get rid of their bias to anything not "real music" and get a fucking grip.

my two floorboards.

computo · Post by **computo** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:50 am

the initial postee is a philistine.

Only a moron would make such blanket statements, which only illuminate the listener as to how ignorant the moron really is.

break out of your tiny, insignificant womb, and learn a thing or two about the subject, before you go and expose yourself even further. I'm not going to begin to address the errors in his judgement, other than to say, you have no idea.

djshiva · Post by **djshiva** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:40 am

incinereight wrote: and really, think about it ... people at clubs are there to hit on each other and get ripped .... unless you are the chemical brothers or some big name electronic act ... nobody cares what the hell you are up to and to think they do is to overestimate your importance.

well, this does beg the question why pay ridiculous amounts of money to these artists to come and "play" if no one is actually interested in what they're doing?

i personally think it's insulting to pay money to see an artist "live" only to watch them nod their heads and twiddle a knob or two throughout the evening.that makes me a sucker, and that tells me that they think i'm a sucker too. a sucker with a thin wallet filling their pockets. fuck that.

the music "business" has inspired shysters and snake oil salesmen with music as their wares...

if i go see someone play live, i wanna see them play live. and i think that is a good chunk of what holds electronic music back. people are bored by the live shows. i am not saying u have to jump around like a prat to entertain, but i do expect something creative. be it an interesting visual show or a new take on old material, i expect (and deserve) a live act to at least make a fucking effort when i pay their fuckin light bills, ya know?

if the artist isn't at least breaking a sweat and enjoying himself, he might as well be making a bloody spreadsheet as far as i am concerned.

and there is also the issue of the commercialization of music and the presentation of that which has become "product". we have set up an industry that revolves around "live" presentation of music, whether that be live pas or djs. the industry setup is there for little more than promotion of a product. the disconnect comes because people want to connect with the artists on a human level, and part of that comes from seeing them play their music in a live setting. i believe that need is thwarted by the "faking it" syndrome that was the focus of the original post. how much connection and resonation can there be when it becomes obvious that the artist cares less about that connection than looking like they are doing something that they are not, ostensibly to collect a paycheck?

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:06 am

Sinjin wrote:ive been avoiding forums fpr the last couple of months due to a desire to avoid the big digital penis size war that is normally going on, so iwas initially tempted to ignore the notification about this thread in my inbox. however im glad i read this. good post monty. i found this to be very encouraging.

montrealbreaks wrote:The guy who introduced me to breaks (back when) was constantly doing what he called "faking the funk"...

Crazy shit dude... You're from Daytona Beach?!?!? Do you know Rob Real? He's the dude I was talking about. Totally inspired me back in the day, I even hired him to come play in Canada back in '99. Excellent showman, excellent musician, excellent mentor.

Nod · Post by **Nod** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:31 am

Interesting thread

I've been doing shows with bands a long time, must be up around the 700-800 gig mark by now, and I've seen and heard a lot of different folks do their thing under the lights. As various posters have mentioned by and large Joe Public doesn't give a toss how you do it - they've paid to be entertained and you're the entertainment

It's only when performers/musicians/DJ's/whatever discuss this amongst themselves that the techniques of 'performance' get picked apart.

Fact is I've seen some killer performers and I've seen some laughable ones in every genre. What seperated the good and the bad for me was taking ones taking the risk to perform the material 'live' - the reason being that they might play, or trigger, or cue a riff/beat/sample not quite exactly the same way in each performance. Some nights might suck - but the nights when it worked....well it really worked. In terms of live performance constant perfection is frankly quite tiresome and actually removes the spontaneity and excitement you're attempting to achieve, for yourself not the audience, in most cases.

For traditional bands (guitar/bass/drums) most of the time they ain't playing exactly the same thing exactly the same way - yeah you rehearse the material so you're 'tight' with one another - but it's entirely different from watching someone mime along to a backing track and, cue the break and filter, start twiddling the cutoff to look technical. You may as well f**k off and get a choreographer, some dancers and a Diet Coke whilst you're at it.

This isn't really down to 'electronic music sucks live' per se. If it was down to a choice of watching 10 people hit play in Live and run the arrange page in perfect sync with one another whilst huddling round the glows - or watching 10 people jam it off the cuff/jump into the audience with their laptops I know which I'd find more musically rewarding to listen to/watch. Another point would be in terms of the haptic interfaces that are used for the performance of electronic music - they're still in their infancy - but given time I'm sure they'll become just as sexy as a black Les Paul Studio