Fuck innovation...where is the soul?

[forge]

choclate use to taste so good as a child.

well exactly.

[Pitch Black]

the idea that innovation = good is bullshit.

Absolutely! Its called Neomania and it (along with "ego" IMHO) is one of the supreme problems of the world. The obsession with what is new, as opposed to what is best.

Human beings seek transcendence. We seem to be hard-wired to crave it. Wether it be by spiritual practice or music or drugs or rollercoasters or dancing or cinema or mountain climbing or orgasm, we want the Big Input - something greater than our everyday humdrum existance.

I like the line: "The Church used to have a monopoly on special effects."

Think about the great cathedrals and mosques of the world - the incredible stained glass windows, the accoustics, the costumes, and the output of the greatest artists of the ages all striving to enhance the experience for the human. "The Church" no longer has a monopoly on special effects. Much of the message and impetus behind the special effects these days is hollow/shallow at best and hellishly dangerous and destructive at worst.

As musicians, we hold the power over (IMHO) THE most instantly accessible everyday transcendence-on-demand technique there is. Its an amazing power. The question is: what are your motives? What are you gonna do with it?


(Sorry, it seems a day for metaphysical musings)

Just call me the Methylated Spiritualist...

[polyslax]

Let's face it: White folks just can't groove!

Seriously, I think that feeling of detachment is just a symptom of aging. Every generation seems to go through that feeling of "oh my god, have you heard what they're listening to these days".

We have a much larger pool of music makers nowadays due to the spread of technology, which means there's a lot of mediocrity, but music evolves and there's not a lot you can do about it. If my grandfather had had his way, we'd all be listening to march music right now. He thought my father was insane listening to the likes of Bing Crosby and Frank Sinatra. My father constantly ridiculed us for listening to simplistic rock music where you could hardly make out the words and people spent so much time screaming. I find mainstream pop/hip hop that teens are listening to almost unbearable, and I consider myself very open-minded about music.

Not sure where I'm going with this... it's 5:03 am, and I need a smoke.

[Martyn]

I havn't found much music that really fires my guns since 2000. Its not that I've not been looking either, quite distressed about it actually and have been for quite a while.

I hear lots thats clever, lots that's TRYING to be clever, lots and LOTS of shite.

Richie Hawtin was cutting edge around ten years ago along with the whole techno thing. My brother's a dj, I have countless arguments about this subject with him, the FACT is out of every ACTUAL PUNTER I meet, NONE of them listens to dance or techno, only DJs do! I get that "didn't electronic music die out in 1998" reply. This is how it is round my neck of the woods anyway.

Fuck, I can't listen to it anymore either, I did it to death in the 90s, i did metal to death in the 80s too, can't relate to hip hop (I'm from Cornwall UK).

Show me something truly new! It's hard. Maybe all this wonderful software will take us all somewhere different, I hope so, I don't really like the stuff I make with it either, but it's not stopping me searching.

Music making for me at the moment is about experiment and failure, at some point I might come up with something that fires my guns again and then I guess i'll be happy.

[DJRetard]

i do think The Dance by Derrick May is soulful....but that's because it sounds like magic.....and he probably had some musical heritage and knowledge to make that record

People need to learn how to play again and start learning how music works (not technology)...then we can have some great music again!

I agree 1000%

[mike holiday]

wow i keep finding better and better music all the time

i guess i know where to look

[raapie]

things change. people like listening to machines now. put a machine and a great voice and it's great. Annie Lennox for exampl... Scritti Politti. Cleaness music, but the voice, the syncopation and the weird offsets in text.. soul.

I like modern technology like Live. my favorite trick with Live is record VSTi's directly as audio. live playing and record it. then quickly shuffle some parts, re-arrange etc. working fast is just great. I love finishing tracks within a couple of hours. but some take like 2 or 3 days. but doing it fast with a Zen-like focus, is really a good way in my opinion to capture my soul without too much polish

[Angstrom]

there's a lot of good points here.

particularly about the technologically assisted democratization of music and the dilution of the pool of brilliant works by the yellow stream of less talented others.

although past generations have often claimed 'modern music is rubbish' - I imagine the last time this type of cultural revolution happened was when 'Player Pianos' were introduced instead of pianists.

But now - the people with modern 'player pianos' actually release the music the pianos make.

I think this is what our parents faced, the simplification of music to simple easilly playable chunks ... though now - the chunks play themselves!


thereis still great music being made .. it's just tougher to find it .. and it isn't rewarded financially the way it once was.

[ikeaboy]

there's a lot of good points here.

particularly about the technologically assisted democratization of music and the dilution of the pool of brilliant works by the yellow stream of less talented others.


thereis still great music being made .. it's just tougher to find it .. and it isn't rewarded financially the way it once was.

Reminds me of an axiom - the fake undermines the value of the real.

Also I dislike they way we consume music like it should be disposable. Music has gotten confused with fashion IMHO. The lust for the new, isn't that the same drive we had as teenagers when we had to be the first to hear an excellent new band and then we had to be the first to say they were shit when the hordes got into it; what has that got to do with music? How was it decided that something made twenty years ago is old for music? granted if it was music made to fit a scene which is now dead and the music had no other worth then the fact it fitted that scene (I'm being generous if I say 50% of electronic music falls into this catagory).Theres more music out there than anyone can listen to in a lifetime but peoples skills in sorting the wheat from the chaff, I'm not sure if thats getting better or worse. (Oh must be worse since I'm not on sale in every record shop )

Oh and can people stop slagging successfull artists (that i like )

[conny]

Music has gotten confused with fashion IMHO.

Yeah.
Not new, though.
Guess there was a fashion at Mozart's days also.
But some have to go beyond fashion, or ignore it, or adapt the individual sense for good stuff with the fashion.

Interesting really, how the "new" is getting boring... as if "new" is outfashioned not by content but by the attempt to be "the new"...

// C

[New Yawkah]

For a good semi-related topic, check out {Post subject: How many people play an intrument?}

Both of these posts are interesting...

[ikeaboy]

Music has gotten confused with fashion IMHO.

Yeah.
Not new, though.
Guess there was a fashion at Mozart's days also.
But some have to go beyond fashion, or ignore it, or adapt the individual sense for good stuff with the fashion.

Interesting really, how the "new" is getting boring... as if "new" is outfashioned not by content but by the attempt to be "the new"...

// C

I suppose its always been there, the effect of a Mass of people, who take as much enjoyment in the fact (or appearance thereoff) that they appreciate music as much as they do in the listening experience. I'm not saying i'm as pure as snow, god knows I've read the WIRE music magazine and felt as clever as fuck.
Maybe your last point conny is only true for the portion of consumers who also make music.
I'm really starting to regret my awareness of the needs of this portion of the audience, the portion who make tracks also, you know, some are friends who do likewise the rest are looking over your shoulder counting your clips and sends.E.G> I've worked my ass off firing clips for hard sections of gigs that i could of run from session view, why ?
for the dancefloor? I imagine i could prepare the sections to better effect. to capture that extra live juice?- yes so i tell myself.
But isn't it possible this is just to impress, on a technical ability level, anyone who happens to see what I'm doing? Isn't that really adolescent hobby boy bullshit?


Soul searching here.

[Angstrom]

if the music has soul, it doesn't matter how it's produced.
But unfortunately the way most music is produced now is without skill, the skill came from programmers and session musicians on a sample cd. Session musicians aren't paid to exude soul.

there may be a way to put soul in that process, but it doesn't happen often

I imagine i could prepare the sections to better effect. to capture that extra live juice?- yes so i tell myself.
But isn't it possible this is just to impress, on a technical ability level, anyone who happens to see what I'm doing?

Personally I think the pretence of performing purely electronic music is redundant.
We can read the vibe of the crowd and alter the mix etc, trigger some samples, perhaps even play a little. but does that really constitue playing live ... or is that being a glorified sound engineer?

99% of the audience watching a sweaty man hunched over a laptop or peice of equipment is just thinking 'wtf is he doing there, looking like he is having a heart attack!'

you may as well be staring furiously into a cardboard box for what it means to them as a performance.

[ikeaboy]

if the music has soul, it doesn't matter how it's produced.
But unfortunately the way most music is produced now is without skill, the skill came from programmers and session musicians on a sample cd. Session musicians aren't paid to exude soul.

there may be a way to put soul in that process, but it doesn't happen often

Personally I think the pretence of performing purely electronic music is redundant.
We can read the vibe of the crowd and alter the mix etc, trigger some samples, perhaps even play a little. but does that really constitue playing live ... or is that being a glorified sound engineer?

99% of the audience watching a sweaty man hunched over a laptop or peice of equipment is just thinking 'wtf is he doing there, looking like he is having a heart attack!'

you may as well be staring furiously into a cardboard box for what it means to them as a performance.

I aggree on all points, particularly about the problems and contradictions in live electronic music. I'm leaning towards a more "Dj plus" live ethic now because forcing all of my tracks into a meaningfull live set when they aren't written that way wasn't doing the tracks or the audience justice (made for a great home listen but i always felt i was missing something on dancefloors that a greater stockpile of suitable source material could of provided). Perhaps someone who makes all elements of an electronic piece from scratch would have some insight here

[ikeaboy]

Sorry for going OT, to undo---techno as produced by richie hawtin, for example on his minus label has a very utilitarian quality to it as compared to a song by Roberta Flack. While still undeniably music, a techno track is more of a tool for a situation whereas a Roberta flack track is self contained. However a piece of music can be made to become more than itself within context and timing provided by a Dj and an audience, and for this purpose a minus record is surgically designed whereas a Roberta flack record, isn't. If you stand in the centre of a heaving mass of people dancing to techno you'll find plenty soul whatsmore your enjoying it as a group. Part of what gets people interested enough to listen to move to groove is the shock of the new IMHO.