Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

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TomViolenz
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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by TomViolenz » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:11 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
TomViolenz wrote:
Petty-bourgeois means middle class.
But it's not a meaningful term in this context!
It's standard Marxist terminolgy
Yes for a part of society, not a system!
So it says nothing about the kind of revolution he would make. Hence my question why you didn't add other non-relevant classifications to describe him
TomViolenz wrote: So he was a middle class guy fighting for the freedom of his country...a very insightful observation Mr. Scientist. You should have also added beard wearing or children loving, or how about Spanish speaking... 8O
It has nothing to do with his fucking beard.
Exactly, just like him loving his country or being middle class has nothing to do with what kind of revolution he would start.

Yet you add those terms, why is that?
I tell you why, because they are code words for "enemy" in communist speak!
Which leads directly to:
TomViolenz wrote: You know very well that what you implied by these terms was far from innocent, you just can't own up to them, because you are afraid it would show your hatefulness. But don't fool yourself, you can't hide it, it's showing in everything you write here!
What in the name of God you are banging on about here in this insane-sounding way, I have not the slightest inkling. Have you gone mad?
No just observing the truth about you...

re:dream
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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by re:dream » Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:29 am

I can't decide whether this was interesting in a boring way, or boring in an interesting way.

andydes
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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by andydes » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:21 am

The Finn wrote:I can't decide whether this was interesting in a boring way, or boring in an interesting way.
I think it's going quite well compared to others we've had on the subject.

Galt
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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by Galt » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:48 am

The Finn wrote:Hey! Don't diss Madiba. He's cool. And a much bigger person than you, me, or Funken.
I'm just saying his country wasn't exactly better off after his tenure as Emperor Penguin... :)

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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by re:dream » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:48 am

Funk N. Furter wrote:Next question please...

I'll pass.

re:dream
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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by re:dream » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:53 am

Galt wrote:
The Finn wrote:Hey! Don't diss Madiba. He's cool. And a much bigger person than you, me, or Funken.
I'm just saying his country wasn't exactly better off after his tenure as Emperor Penguin... :)
As someone who has lived here most of my life, I beg to differ.

Granted: things right now are not great; there's still lots of poverty and inequality and the politics has been ugly since Marikana.

But every time I think of what things were like in the 1970s and 1980s I realize again how lucky we have been as a country. Things were really dire. And though I don't like the way many people put Madiba on a pedestal, he was a visionary politician, a great statesman, and a pretty cool guy. Without him, South Africa right now would be looking not unlike Syria.

Galt
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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by Galt » Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:57 am

The Finn wrote:As someone who has lived here most of my life, I beg to differ.

Granted: things right now are not great; there's still lots of poverty and inequality and the politics has been ugly since Marikana.

But every time I think of what things were like in the 1970s and 1980s I realize again how lucky we have been as a country. Things were really dire. And though I don't like the way many people put Madiba on a pedestal, he was a visionary politician, a great statesman, and a pretty cool guy. Without him, South Africa right now would be looking not unlike Syria.
I guess we're not looking at the same stats. The white population of SA is seriously taking a beating right now. Just look at these murder rates!

Image

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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by re:dream » Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:04 am

Image

TomViolenz
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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by TomViolenz » Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:10 am

Funk N. Furter wrote:
TomViolenz wrote: Yes for a part of society, not a system!
So it says nothing about the kind of revolution he would make. Hence my question why you didn't add other non-relevant classifications to describe him
"Petty bourgeois nationalism" describes Castro's political program. Petty bourgeois means he did not stress the importance of the urban working class, instead choosing a petty-bourgeois route — guerilla warfare in the countryside. The countryside where peasants live. Peasants are not working class, they are a class of their own. They are closer to the petty-bourgeis even though many are poor and some have no land to farm. Some of the landless might be more like workers, but most are sort of petty-bourgeois.

"Petty-bourgeois" also describes Castro's goals. He did not plan to overthrow capitalism completely, and begin a transformation to a socialist society, as I said. He only wanted to get rid of the dictatorship and American domination. These are parts of the bourgeois revolution.

Even Che Guevara called Castro a "left wing bourgeois". These sort of comments are always used to describe a person or group's methods and program.

Let's see what others have to say...
Anderson also comments in relation to Matthews’s famous interview with Castro:

"Defining the ‘Rebel Army’s’ political slant in almost the terms of an FDR liberal, Matthews wrote: ‘It is a revolutionary movement that calls itself socialistic. It is also nationalistic, which generally in Latin America means anti-Yankee. The programme is vague and couched in generalities, but it amounts to a new deal for Cuba, radical, democratic and therefore anticommunist. The real core of its strength is that it is fighting against the military dictatorship of President Batista…[Castro] has strong ideas of liberty, democracy, social justice, the need to restore the Constitution, to hold elections’." 41
None other than Che Guevara had even written that Castro was a "left-wing bourgeois".31 Guevara’s testimony counts for a little more than Lorimer’s historical idealisations. Franqui comments further on Castro’s chequered ideological journey:

"In July 1958, out in the Sierra, Fidel made some startling statements to Jules Dubois, an American correspondent with State Department connections. Some of the young radicals from Santiago – Nilsa Espín, Rivero, and the president of the student body, Jorge Ibarra, dropped out of the 26 July Movement because of the conservatism of those remarks. In fact, Fidel’s statements were so reactionary they were suspicious. But until the end of the war and the beginning of 1959, no one believed Fidel was a Communist. Now, in 1959, when the agrarian reform had yet to take place and Fidel was more or less incommunicado, Raúl and Che began to take certain matters into their own hands – especially regarding the takeover of plantations by means of Communist peasant leaders. In a public address, Fidel severely criticised those methods, ordered the restitution of the lands, and said that the agrarian reform would be strictly legal. In his visits to the university and to the offices of ‘Bohemia’ and ‘Revolución’, he would say in a loud voice: ‘I believe only in the revolution. I will shoot anyone who opposes the revolution – including Raúl and Che’." 32
I could quote dozens more. You actually agreed with me that Castro was not a socialist before the revolution removed Batista and America shunned the new government. Therefore this conversation should be quick and easy. If Castro wasn't a socialist, what was he? His main aims were land reform, democracy, removing American domination of the economy. His method was guerilla warfare based on the peasantry. How so we label this? Petty-bourgeois nationalism.

Search MIA "petty-bourgeois nationalism"

Search MIA "petty-bourgeis nationalist" 6,190 results

Castroism and the Politics of Petty-Bourgeois Nationalism This is from a website I wouldn't recommend, and I haven't read this, but at least it shows other Marxists use the exact same phrase.


Marxism is about the WORKING CLASS establishing socialism. The peasantry cannot do it. Any politics emphasising the peasantry (Castro, Mao etc) is essentially petty-bourgeois. Any politics limited to bourgeois-democratic reforms and focused on removing foreign domination ONLY is nationalist. Independence struggles are nationalist for example. Obviously revolutions can have a mixture of tasks and aims. In Russia the bourgois revolution had not been completed before the October revolution. Therefore the Bolsheviks had to do it. They had to carry out the 'bourgeois tasks' (tasks classically done by the bourgeois revolutions in England, France and Holland). These include breaking up the feudal land structure - land reform, ie affordable land to the poor peasants, removal of foreign domination, parliamentary democracy, modernising the economy. But the Bolsheviks did not limit themselves to these bourgeois tasks, they planned to continue straight through to socialism, a concept developed by Trotsky originally, known now as the theory of Permanent Revolution.

Image

https://www.marxists.org/glossary/event ... liberation

http://www.socialistworld.net/pubs/Cuba/00.html

http://www.socialistworld.net/pubs/che/00.html
If you could always post in this manner, I would not think about you what I do!
I have only read up to this post yet though. I wouldn't be surpised to see the very next one, ruin it all again.
BTW: As much as your definition might be correct, my experience in the DDR was, that whenever the terms you used where mentioned, you could almost smell the hate from the speaker. This has not changed when I met Marxist ideologes after. Going from your normal writing style, I was expecting nothing but this meaning.

As a general observation: I think it is best if we just ignore each others posts! I don't like you, you don't like me and we obviously have a very hard time hiding this. Let's not let this ruin our days in the Lounge (or the ones of the others, who have to read our posts). I for one, went to bed yesterday in a very bad mood because of this thread.

TomViolenz
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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by TomViolenz » Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:14 am

Galt wrote:
The Finn wrote:As someone who has lived here most of my life, I beg to differ.

Granted: things right now are not great; there's still lots of poverty and inequality and the politics has been ugly since Marikana.

But every time I think of what things were like in the 1970s and 1980s I realize again how lucky we have been as a country. Things were really dire. And though I don't like the way many people put Madiba on a pedestal, he was a visionary politician, a great statesman, and a pretty cool guy. Without him, South Africa right now would be looking not unlike Syria.
I guess we're not looking at the same stats. The white population of SA is seriously taking a beating right now. Just look at these murder rates!

Image
You're always good for a laugh :-)
Black/white Rhinos :mrgreen:

re:dream
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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by re:dream » Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:23 am

TomViolenz wrote:
Galt wrote:
The Finn wrote:As someone who has lived here most of my life, I beg to differ.

Granted: things right now are not great; there's still lots of poverty and inequality and the politics has been ugly since Marikana.

But every time I think of what things were like in the 1970s and 1980s I realize again how lucky we have been as a country. Things were really dire. And though I don't like the way many people put Madiba on a pedestal, he was a visionary politician, a great statesman, and a pretty cool guy. Without him, South Africa right now would be looking not unlike Syria.
I guess we're not looking at the same stats. The white population of SA is seriously taking a beating right now. Just look at these murder rates!

Image
You're always good for a laugh :-)
Black/white Rhinos :mrgreen:

It's always amazed me about white right wingers. They are more concerned about rhinos than people. It is very strange!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QPAqSORD-U

TomViolenz
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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by TomViolenz » Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:41 am

The Finn wrote:
TomViolenz wrote:
Galt wrote: I guess we're not looking at the same stats. The white population of SA is seriously taking a beating right now. Just look at these murder rates!

Image
You're always good for a laugh :-)
Black/white Rhinos :mrgreen:

It's always amazed me about white right wingers. They are more concerned about rhinos than people. It is very strange!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QPAqSORD-U
I think the question to ask, would be if black right wingers, prefere black rhinos... :mrgreen:

re:dream
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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by re:dream » Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:49 am

TomViolenz wrote: I think the question to ask, would be if black right wingers, prefere black rhinos... :mrgreen:
Check out the comments on that Youtube clip. 8O Certainly, for white Rhodesians, there's no difference between black and white rhinos. They talk about them all as if they are people.

As for black right-wingers. I don't know. I don't think rhinos are high up on their list of things to worry about at all.

TomViolenz
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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by TomViolenz » Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:58 am

The Finn wrote:
TomViolenz wrote: I think the question to ask, would be if black right wingers, prefere black rhinos... :mrgreen:
Check out the comments on that Youtube clip. 8O Certainly, for white Rhodesians, there's no difference between black and white rhinos. They talk about them all as if they are people.

As for black right-wingers. I don't know. I don't think rhinos are high up on their list of things to worry about at all.
I'm starting to fear there's some humor lost in translation: Was Galt making a joke, when he posted that chart? I thought so, that's what my response was based on...
But your responses sound so serious, am I missing something?

re:dream
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Re: Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

Post by re:dream » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:03 pm

Look, this is Galt we are speaking of 8)

My assumption was he was joking. (I somehow can't see him strumming along to that song.)

And I must say I wasn't being serious either. Amused. Or bemused. Something with muse, anyway.
Last edited by re:dream on Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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