Any chance of getting the old browser categories back?

[[bge]]

It's hard to tell because there are so many Operator presets from packs that the filtered search is quiet long but what I can say is that there is no "components" tag so at least these presets are not included in any filtered search as far as I can see.

Indeed, the Components categorisation was removed, but all of those presets are tagged instead with Character|Basic and their corresponding sound type (Pad, Lead, Synth Bass etc)

Every preset, sample, clip and piece of content in the Core Library are fully tagged and can be found when filtering.

The folder structure of the Core Library (and our Packs) is simple but also is quite constricting at times. There are some sounds which have more than one attribute, and these can be tagged with more than one tag (e.g. Bell, Pad). In addition to which the Character tags are also very useful to find sounds.

I recommend using the Creator|Ableton and Creator|User tags to filter your own presets from the factory ones.
I hope that helps.

[benmuetsch]

No, that doesn't really help because I have third-party packs (e.g., Samples from Mars), and those presets now also appear under 'User,' which is correct in one sense, but I really want to see my presets.

But let's leave it at that, I can see we're not going to come to an agreement here. I still find the new browser absolutely terrible, and the horizontal filters take up way too much space (I mean, hello, we have widescreens, not the other way around. Try working in Groove Hotswap mode with the piano roll open at the bottom, and on top of that, having horizontal filters – it doesn't get worse than that in terms of UI).

Ableton is clearly developing into a software that is meant to be used with Push or Move, leaning more towards a "groovebox or MASCHINE workflow," which of course makes it increasingly less attractive for pure studio work. The next update will definitely need careful consideration.

[[bge]]

No, that doesn't really help because I have third-party packs (e.g., Samples from Mars), and those presets now also appear under 'User,' which is correct in one sense, but I really want to see my presets.

Thanks for the info. That is useful to know and I've noted this down. I'm sorry that it's not as easy to find just the presets that you've created. We'll look into this.

But let's leave it at that, I can see we're not going to come to an agreement here. I still find the new browser absolutely terrible, and the horizontal filters take up way too much space (I mean, hello, we have widescreens, not the other way around. Try working in Groove Hotswap mode with the piano roll open at the bottom, and on top of that, having horizontal filters – it doesn't get worse than that in terms of UI).

On the contrary, I'm just trying to figure out the root of the issues that you're having. This is all very helpful. How many filters do you typically have open on each label, and which labels do you use filters on?

As I described earlier, I highly recommend that you hide any filters you don't need to see. This way the vertical space required is reduced as much as possible. Also, did you know that if you hover over the line that divides the filter view from the content pane (the results list), wait for the cursor to transform into the splitter icon, then double click that, the view becomes fully responsive - it will enlarge and contract dynamically based on the amount of filter groups that are enabled, and the amount of tags currently visible. I understand that this does require you to initially configure the filter groups on each label, but once that's done you should be able to browse without any further configuration. If that's not the case, please let me know.

Ableton is clearly developing into a software that is meant to be used with Push or Move, leaning more towards a "groovebox or MASCHINE workflow," which of course makes it increasingly less attractive for pure studio work. The next update will definitely need careful consideration.

This is not the case. Although some concepts and workflows are shared across our products, the feature set and workflow is optimised for the individual product itself and each product can be used fully independently. All features that we add to the Live browser are optimised to work 100% in Live, using the mouse and/or keyboard. Some of these features and workflows can be re-used in Push or Move, but you do not need to have either piece of hardware.

[qub]

No, that doesn't really help because I have third-party packs (e.g., Samples from Mars), and those presets now also appear under 'User,' which is correct in one sense, but I really want to see my presets.

Thanks for the info. That is useful to know and I've noted this down. I'm sorry that it's not as easy to find just the presets that you've created. We'll look into this.

But let's leave it at that, I can see we're not going to come to an agreement here. I still find the new browser absolutely terrible, and the horizontal filters take up way too much space (I mean, hello, we have widescreens, not the other way around. Try working in Groove Hotswap mode with the piano roll open at the bottom, and on top of that, having horizontal filters – it doesn't get worse than that in terms of UI).

On the contrary, I'm just trying to figure out the root of the issues that you're having. This is all very helpful. How many filters do you typically have open on each label, and which labels do you use filters on?

As I described earlier, I highly recommend that you hide any filters you don't need to see. This way the vertical space required is reduced as much as possible. Also, did you know that if you hover over the line that divides the filter view from the content pane (the results list), wait for the cursor to transform into the splitter icon, then double click that, the view becomes fully responsive - it will enlarge and contract dynamically based on the amount of filter groups that are enabled, and the amount of tags currently visible. I understand that this does require you to initially configure the filter groups on each label, but once that's done you should be able to browse without any further configuration. If that's not the case, please let me know.

Ableton is clearly developing into a software that is meant to be used with Push or Move, leaning more towards a "groovebox or MASCHINE workflow," which of course makes it increasingly less attractive for pure studio work. The next update will definitely need careful consideration.

This is not the case. Although some concepts and workflows are shared across our products, the feature set and workflow is optimised for the individual product itself and each product can be used fully independently. All features that we add to the Live browser are optimised to work 100% in Live, using the mouse and/or keyboard. Some of these features and workflows can be re-used in Push or Move, but you do not need to have either piece of hardware.

You guys can claim all you want that this is not a push to move to push, but it absolutely is. Otherwise, you would have left a classic interface as an option. And don't tell me there was no way you could do that, you only could move forward with this. That's a BS excuse. It may have taken a little time but you definitely could do it and if not you need to hire developers that can handle that job. You could, and should, still go back and add that as an option. It's not like you don't have the code from 11 that couldn't be adapted and integrated. This wasn't an addition to an existing browser that people were greatly familiar with and really didn't have complaints about. This was a complete wipeout of your existing browser and a forced move to something that a significant portion of your user base absolutely abhors.

It's not that we're having trouble getting used to it, it's that we don't like it. It is completely not functional for a lot of us and unusable in our existing workflow. To me it is so different and frustrating that I might as well just buy into another software package and move forward with that. Because it's requiring a complete shutdown of my creative abilities as I go through and tag over 100,000 plugins, loops etc. etc. I'm not going to waste my time to do that when I spent all the time organizing everything into specific folders so that I could work with it properly and enjoy the creative part of music making and not trying to look through a file cabinet of search filters. I'm going to stay with 11 as long as it works and after that I'll move on to other software and I hope a lot of other people do too and you guys realize that you can't just shove a new UI and interface on people.

I just don't understand how you couldn't have developed this new system as an option. I work with lots of other software packages and they often have a classic interface or an optional layout. That way as they make changes moving forward you can always set up things how it works for you or put them back to how they were before they went UI crazy. It does seem like the industry gets a kick out of itself for rebuilding its interface every revision. Most of the time for a small benefit to a small amount of people but a headache to the rest.

This search system is insufferable and I can't believe you just threw it at people without any consideration of the years of effort that have been made to generate a workflow that now has to be thrown out.

Just as an example: I work commonly with five or six other electronic musicians. And none of us are using 12 because we consider it a joke and a disrespect to those of us that have spent years in a completely functional and working system. Luckily, I was able to test it on one of my fellow musician's setup so I didn't have to waste my money on it.

[benmuetsch]

I can't add much to what "qub" has already said; this new browser is just such a bad joke, and the tagging system is just as useless for organized producers. Anyone who structures their samples neatly in Live and generally on the computer not only doesn’t benefit from the new browser, but is seriously hindered by it. And to say, "we can't bring the old browser back" is such a weak excuse — it almost sounds like something Native Instruments would say.

Why not put it to a vote in the community or via Live itself, and let's see what percentage of users actually like the new browser?!

[Rivanni]

I can't add much to what "qub" has already said; this new browser is just such a bad joke, and the tagging system is just as useless for organized producers. Anyone who structures their samples neatly in Live and generally on the computer not only doesn’t benefit from the new browser, but is seriously hindered by it. And to say, "we can't bring the old browser back" is such a weak excuse — it almost sounds like something Native Instruments would say.

I understand that you dislike the new features, but what functionalities that were present in previous Live versions are no longer available, making it impossible to use your structured system for samples?

Why not put it to a vote in the community or via Live itself, and let's see what percentage of users actually like the new browser?!

But then what? Just because some people don't like the new browser, should it be taken away from those who do? A vote just doesn't make sense.
Many users wanted a tagging system, which they got in Live 12.
If you don't want to tag things or use the filters, don't. Ignore and or hide things you don't need.

[Rivanni]

It's not that we're having trouble getting used to it, it's that we don't like it. It is completely not functional for a lot of us and unusable in our existing workflow.

I find it quite functional. And I can make a similar bold claim that many others also like it.

To me it is so different and frustrating that I might as well just buy into another software package and move forward with that. Because it's requiring a complete shutdown of my creative abilities as I go through and tag over 100,000 plugins, loops etc. etc. I'm not going to waste my time to do that when I spent all the time organizing everything into specific folders so that I could work with it properly and enjoy the creative part of music making and not trying to look through a file cabinet of search filters.

First, don't start tagging when you want to create something. Second, you don't have to tag anything in the first place.
I'm not tagging all my samples. Like you, I don't have the time for it, nor do I like to do such a thing. I browse my custom folders or use third-party software as I always did. I now also often use the sound similarity feature. Auto-tagging is also becoming helpful, although it's still in its infancy. So, I combine the old and new ways. You can stick to the old ways.

[benmuetsch]

I can't add much to what "qub" has already said; this new browser is just such a bad joke, and the tagging system is just as useless for organized producers. Anyone who structures their samples neatly in Live and generally on the computer not only doesn’t benefit from the new browser, but is seriously hindered by it. And to say, "we can't bring the old browser back" is such a weak excuse — it almost sounds like something Native Instruments would say.

I understand that you dislike the new features, but what functionalities that were present in previous Live versions are no longer available, making it impossible to use your structured system for samples?

Why not put it to a vote in the community or via Live itself, and let's see what percentage of users actually like the new browser?!

But then what? Just because some people don't like the new browser, should it be taken away from those who do? A vote just doesn't make sense.
Many users wanted a tagging system, which they got in Live 12.
If you don't want to tag things or use the filters, don't. Ignore and or hide things you don't need.

I did never say "take it away", it should not be too hard to implement an option "use tags/filter browser" or "use classic browser".

I do use Ableton Live stock instruments, devices and effects a lot and I cannot browse them as I was used to so think about "talking away" again.
It's not about samples, it's about Ableton devices and their presets.

[Rivanni]

[
It's not about samples, it's about Ableton devices and their presets.

Ah, so when you wrote "Anyone who structures their samples neatly in Live and generally on the computer not only doesn’t benefit from the new browser, but is seriously hindered by it." you were just guessing what others think.
You didn't mention devices and presets at all. But I agree that this part of the browser needs improvement.

[benmuetsch]

What? I mentioned devices and their presets in every post, the point about samples started when qub jumped in.

There was the point where people stated that the new browser is great because of the possibility of tagging samples.

[login]

The old structure was hierarchical and could only be used from the top down.

The same categories still exists but they are properties of the objects instead of just an arbitrary hierarchy. Each user can refine their system with or without hierarchy.

The same results can be achieved, but now it accommodates many other workflows.

Those who work with databases understand the huge and big difference this makes, folders are so... 1988, why are you thinking as if you were navigating in windows 3.1 or MS-Dos? why would you think that is good?

[benmuetsch]

Those who work with databases and large sets of data understand that's a bad idea to cripple already limited workspace in an UI even further.
Those who work with databases also know that's a bad idea to mix and match data of different sources.

[Rivanni]

Those who work with databases and large sets of data understand that's a bad idea to cripple already limited workspace in an UI even further.
Those who work with databases also know that's a bad idea to mix and match data of different sources.

I don't know what you mean by this when it comes to Live.

I work with large databases and can tell what you say is nonsense.
Databases can contain data from a wide variety of sources and different formats, and be stored in various ways. How depends on its purpose.
User interface design has nothing to do with the size of a database. Live's browser UI can be the frontend of a small database or a very large one.

[benmuetsch]

It is simple but I explain nonetheless.

a) We use widescreen monitors, so it doesn’t make much sense to keep subdividing vertical space. Filters are arranged in a row, and the left window already often has limited space, especially if the piano roll and FX chain are open. When working with grooves, for example, it becomes difficult to see anything because the user space on the left is totally overloaded. This is on a 1920 x 1200 monitor which already offers a bit more space compared to 1080p displays.

b) The same applies to instruments. Often, I’m looking for a synth sound and want to select a preset from a specific synth. Previously, I could just go into the Operator folder and navigate through it using the arrow keys, having more space in the left column. Now, that’s no longer possible because I either have to set filters first or deal with an endlessly long, unsorted list. I’m not saying filters are generally bad, but there should be an option to choose what works best for you. For my workflow, the new system means more clicks and more eye strain.

[benmuetsch]

The space in the top left is simply too overloaded now imho.