(ot) (political) letter from Iran to the US

[Machinate]

Mohammad is seen as the last prophet.......... (Mohammad did not found Islam, he just told us about it - Adam was the first muslim, Abraham/Ibrahim was a muslim, Moses was a muslim, Jesus was a muslim).

Actually, Abraham ( I think), definitely Moses and Jesus were Jews. There was nothing muslim about them, unless you mean a muslim is someone
who is religious.

Operative words were "seen as". From the perspective of a Islamic monotheist they were all worshipping the same god - theirs.

The cartoons... uhm, let's not even go there

[robtronik]

and yet, there are rays of light with regard to Islamic evaluation:

She rips these rascist/ fascist islamo jerks a new one. She's an arab lady.

http://www.memritv.org/

do a search for her name, Wafa Sultan, and watch her two videos.

#1050 - Arab-American Psychologist Wafa Sultan: There Is No Clash of Civilizations but a Clash between the Mentality of the Middle Ages and That of the 21st Century


#783 - LA Psychologist Wafa Sultan Clashes with Algerian Islamist Ahmad bin Muhammad over Islamic Teachings and Terrorism

or click on the link for a transcript. But the videos rock. This appeared on Al Jaz. television Brave lady for sure.

Then there is the lady,Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who is an elected representative in her country who is critical of modern interpretations of islam and being a muslim (at least the extremist versions of it):

http://sugiero.blogspot.com/2006/05/vid ... ed-in.html

she just appeared at Harvard on the 9th as well giving her thoughts. Do a search on her and you'll find the info. The vidoes on both of these ladies are great though and it gives hope to the rise of rationality w/ regard to religious edicts and the question of subjegation of women through religious means.

rob.

[Spikee]

Ok, Bush is a complete asshole. He is wrong. It is easy to feel angry at all his lies and his corruption, but we must not fall into the tempting discourse of these extremists. Bush did terrible things in the name of democracy and freedom. But we need to keep on believing in it, because from here i can see how things change for the worst when people slowly slide into xenophobia and totalitarism.

Peace

Uhm, it's the beliefs you so naively talk about that will lead the country down the path of xenophobia and totalitarianism. Bush has done nothing since 9/11 except say over and over "They hate us for our freedom!" and draw lines between us the Americans, people in the Middle East AND Europeans who vehemently oppose our ballsy actions. He's also fought as hard as he could to turn his opinions into law and erode our freedoms through the Patriot Act. And he's done all of this by using our fear against us, telling us lies during state of the union addresses and using whatever intel was convenient to him to invade Iraq.

The best part is, Bush expects you to believe in it because he doesn't think you're capable of much more. So keep taking the Soma and drinking the Kool-Aid son, you're one of Bush's favorites!

[Benshik]

Ok, Bush is a complete asshole. He is wrong. It is easy to feel angry at all his lies and his corruption, but we must not fall into the tempting discourse of these extremists. Bush did terrible things in the name of democracy and freedom. But we need to keep on believing in it, because from here i can see how things change for the worst when people slowly slide into xenophobia and totalitarism.

Peace

Uhm, it's the beliefs you so naively talk about that will lead the country down the path of xenophobia and totalitarianism. Bush has done nothing since 9/11 except say over and over "They hate us for our freedom!" and draw lines between us the Americans, people in the Middle East AND Europeans who vehemently oppose our ballsy actions. He's also fought as hard as he could to turn his opinions into law and erode our freedoms through the Patriot Act. And he's done all of this by using our fear against us, telling us lies during state of the union addresses and using whatever intel was convenient to him to invade Iraq.

The best part is, Bush expects you to believe in it because he doesn't think you're capable of much more. So keep taking the Soma and drinking the Kool-Aid son, you're one of Bush's favorites!

maybe i wasnt clear enough but i feel like you kinda missed my point. nevertheless your reply confirms my theory: as soon as you type the words "freedom" or "democracy", you are perceived as some naive retarded kool-aid drinker you are perceived as a Bush follower!

But Bush is NOOOTT on freedom and democracy's side. he's a tyrant.
He puts dirt on these words just like terrorists put dirt on Islam.
I say: blame Bush, but don't blame freedom, tolerance and democracy. dont flush the baby together with the water from the bath. maybe you don't see it from America but that's actually whats happening in the world right now: for example the Russian government cracks on media or commits horrible acts in Chechnia. And if you dare tell them that they should respect people, they instantly say: "fuck human rights, its a lie, just look at Bush."

call me naive but freedom and tolerance - not the one advocated by Bush but the real freedom - are values i believe in.

[Spikee]

maybe i wasnt clear enough but i feel like you kinda missed my point. nevertheless your reply confirms my theory: as soon as you type the words "freedom" or "democracy", you are perceived as some naive retarded kool-aid drinker you are perceived as a Bush follower!

But Bush is NOOOTT on freedom and democracy's side. he's a tyrant.
He puts dirt on these words just like terrorists put dirt on Islam.
I say: blame Bush, but don't blame freedom, tolerance and democracy. dont flush the baby together with the water from the bath. maybe you don't see it from America but that's actually whats happening in the world right now: for example the Russian government cracks on media or commits horrible acts in Chechnia. And if you dare tell them that they should respect people, they instantly say: "fuck human rights, its a lie, just look at Bush."

call me naive but freedom and tolerance - not the one advocated by Bush but the real freedom - are values i believe in.

You know what, you're right. I thought you were saying that we must believe in Bush, lol...

No harm, no foul. My apologies.

[b0unce]

great letter. almost no rhetoric. I guess the religious aspect of the letter could be construed as rhetoric, but it still seems like a diplomatic, logical & rational interpretation of such esoteric notions as divine creators etc.

keyser soze, as for the friends of yours who are apparently muslim, and as such you take their views as some kind of....moderate muslim view - well, forget it. They are americans. (the 'dress like ninjas' comment makes that plain). They have bought into the american 'ideology' , just like a shitload of the irish immigrants over there. (and many other nationalities - I'm irish and have LOTS of family in the U.S. so I'll talk about what I know).

When they speak I dont hear an irish person (and im not talking about accent here), I hear an american. That's the thing about america, its a non-culture - its a bunch of immigrants from all over who subscribe to the same idea - which is pure poison at this stage, and I'll refrain from mentioning the indigenous people...that's a discussion in itself.

I personally would like to see the irish effect american politics positively, or repatriate or move to canada, and do something positive there. Of course the last 'irish' guy who attempted to do something good in american politics was assassinated, by the CIA probably.


anyways, I'd like to see american idiots refrain from quoting their idiot friends with the belief they are quoting a muslim, an irish guy, an italian...etc etc. yer skin may be pale, or dark, your hair may be orange or afro....but if you subscribe to american ideals - you are an american.

my two pennies

[noisetonepause]

There Is No Clash of Civilizations but a Clash between the Mentality of the Middle Ages and That of the 21st Century

*shakes head*

There's so many things wrong there I don't even know where to start...

[smutek]

There Is No Clash of Civilizations but a Clash between the Mentality of the Middle Ages and That of the 21st Century

*shakes head*

There's so many things wrong there I don't even know where to start...

Well, if you get a chance please do comment on it. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.

[noisetonepause]

There Is No Clash of Civilizations but a Clash between the Mentality of the Middle Ages and That of the 21st Century

*shakes head*

There's so many things wrong there I don't even know where to start...

To begin with:

1. The Mentality of the Middle Ages... I'll assume the Middle Ages means the period after Rome fell till Guthenberg invented the printing press and kickstarted the so-called renaissance... but which group's mentality during those 1000 years and where? South America? Europe? Mars?

2. The Mentality of the 21st Century... Same issue.

That's classical Orientalism, right there. The fact that it was thought up by a person of Arabic descent doesn't make it any better or worse.

There is a clash of different groups with different agendas, on both a physical and a philosophical plane.

[b0unce]

well...not really on a philosophical plain, it depends on who's stirring shit - and thats usually some group of people with their own interests in mind.

if one is honest about the philosophies, they are quite similar in alot of respects...indeed the president of iran glosses over this in the letter

[Keyser Soze]

keyser soze, as for the friends of yours who are apparently muslim, and as such you take their views as some kind of....moderate muslim view - well, forget it. They are americans. (the 'dress like ninjas' comment makes that plain). They have bought into the american 'ideology' , just like a shitload of the irish immigrants over there. (and many other nationalities - I'm irish and have LOTS of family in the U.S. so I'll talk about what I know).

Well, I will correct you on this point. In fact they are Australian. Please don't tell me that Australians are American.

anyways, I'd like to see american idiots refrain from quoting their idiot friends with the belief they are quoting a muslim, an irish guy, an italian...etc etc. yer skin may be pale, or dark, your hair may be orange or afro....but if you subscribe to american ideals - you are an american.

Again, a correction. A first generation muslim made that comment. Emmigrated over to Australia with his family when he was 16. Maybe now "westernised," so does that make his faith and comment less valid? Plus what are these American ideals you are referring to? The cliche ones are freedom, equality etc.. for all. But those ideals aren't necessarily American.

[M. Bréqs]

There Is No Clash of Civilizations but a Clash between the Mentality of the Middle Ages and That of the 21st Century

*shakes head*

There's so many things wrong there I don't even know where to start...

To begin with:

1. The Mentality of the Middle Ages... I'll assume the Middle Ages means the period after Rome fell till Guthenberg invented the printing press and kickstarted the so-called renaissance... but which group's mentality during those 1000 years and where? South America? Europe? Mars?

2. The Mentality of the 21st Century... Same issue.

That's classical Orientalism, right there. The fact that it was thought up by a person of Arabic descent doesn't make it any better or worse.

There is a clash of different groups with different agendas, on both a physical and a philosophical plane.

She wasn't discussing the West/NATO/USA vs the Islamic sphere, she was discussing the trend to modernize and secularize WITHIN Islam vs those who advocate staying in AD 700.

It's obvious you haven't heard Wafa Sultan speak. You've taken that phrase out of context.

[noisetonepause]

In fact the concept of free will doesn't exist as it does in other religions.

Good old fashioned wrong! Some muslims are very fatalist, granted, but this is one of the very classical debates of muslim theologians.

On a sidenote, blind faith (at the very centre of Christianity, IME) is thought of as a sin by many muslims. Faith is seen as having three, equally important parts: to know with the mind, to know with the heart, and to profess with the tongue.

It is stated in a BBC report that 80% of Germans associate Islam with terrorism and oppression of women.

Says loads about those 80% but very little about Islam. IMHO!

The koran also has passages that basically say slaughter non muslims (the infidel)

Which ayat are you referring to? Please do quote, but remember the rules: You quote the whole ayah and the context. The only way the radicals can justify their actions are by not quoting the text properly, as far as I've seen. Also, reading the Qur'an will tell an outsider little about how Islam is implemented and understood - see Mohammed Arkoun's concepts of 'the Qur'anic fact' vs 'the Islamic fact', I don't know exactly where he presents the idea, but basically you should not confuse what's in the book with what muslims believe, especially not since that book is pretty open to interpretation, as history shows. Reading the commentaries and other works of muslim clerics is a much better way to go. Most of it has only been translated from Arabic to Persian, though. As I understand.

PS - My English seems to be at an all time low today. I've tried to correct my mistakes, but if I'm not making sense, just say so.

-Paws

[noisetonepause]

She wasn't discussing the West/NATO/USA vs the Islamic sphere, she was discussing the trend to modernize and secularize WITHIN Islam vs those who advocate staying in AD 700.

It's obvious you haven't heard Wafa Sultan speak. You've taken that phrase out of context.

Oh. My mistake. Different debate... still, though. Islamic 'fundamentalism' as we know it is about 300 years old at most.

I'm heading out now but I'll watch those at some point. Cheers.

[b0unce]

Well, I will correct you on this point. In fact they are Australian. Please don't tell me that Australians are American.


Again, a correction. A first generation muslim made that comment. Emmigrated over to Australia with his family when he was 16. Maybe now "westernised," so does that make his faith and comment less valid? Plus what are these American ideals you are referring to? The cliche ones are freedom, equality etc.. for all. But those ideals aren't necessarily American.

no australians arent american, but its the exact same thing. non-indigenous people, ie immigrants, lose their culture and subscribe to a new ideal, ie australia. I singled out america cos we are talking about iran/america. but the same rule applies to any of these colonised places where the indigenous are slaughtered and displaced, both culturaly and physicaly. Not to mention introducing them to poisons such as liquor and social welfare.

and yes, now that he is westernised his comments should be quoted as such - westernised. if I had to choose 'is this a muslim comment, or a westernised comment' I'd go with westernised, EASILY ..... its disingenuous to do otherwise. definatly so - now that you've admited yourself that your source is westernised.

oh and as for what I mean about 'american' ideals, well what I am suggesting by this is things like....'the bottom line' , privatised education, health, prisons , politicians with fiscal interests, the allmighty corporation, cultural insensitivy & ignorance, instituitional racism, the loss of civil liberties CONTRARY to the wishy-washy rhetoric, etc etc etc.....and economicaly bullying the rest of the world into doing the same thing.