(ot) (political) letter from Iran to the US

[forge]

erm...sarcasm?

Actually forge, I generally (though not always) find your posts interesting. You're not too difficult to read, and you seem to have a measure of respect for your opponents. That's not universal on this forum unfortunately.

"opponents" - I like that....like we're playing chess or something

I guess we are in a way

I could say the same - you're certainly part of the furniture round here, and I consider you one of the long timers, but you did lose me totally with that post recently about preserving the right to be selfish (paraphrased of course)

but likewise, you obviously think alot and go to great lengths to communicate it

these debates spiral though - and really if I could boil it down the main objection I have to the "right" (even those shitty terms piss me off!) is the apparent lack of understanding of any cultures outside their own and simultaneous belief that it's okay to fuck evryone over just to maintain an excessive material standard that is way more that people need any way.

I actually think the world can sustain quite a decent standard of living for everyone on it if we were to work together, but capitalism doesnt work that way. There are millions of tonnes of food thrown away each year just surplus in the west, yet somehow people are still starving to death.

I dont know, there's just so much wrong with the way it's all run, and it sometimes really winds me up to hear people defending things like the Iraq war which are so clearly out of whack it's not funny.

What the US is spending daily on that war could feed, clothe and educate so many underpriviledged people it's not funny, and GWB is even talking about trips to fucking mars.

It's just totally out of whack, and then I hear people spouting shit like "freedom" and "democracy" - when they just mean "just for us, fuck everyone else" - how democratic is it in the Sudan? How free are the people there? and how long can we fairly, in a supposedly "globalised" world that is happy to exploit the developing world, not also look after it?

And then anyone who mentions any of this is "liberal" or "leftist"

not sure if you say that, but you've been fighting in that corner....

so there, that's where I'm coming from, I'm certainly no blind "liberal" anti-american - that drives me crazy too - that disagreeing with Dubbya means you are "anti-american" like that primitive ape fool represents the whole of America.

But then that view is so stupid I dont even know why i get drawn in by it.

thanks for the comment anyhow.

[forge]

I'm with Keyser Soze on this one.

I just wanted to add that as human beings we are sheep. No matter what individuals may think, the responsibilities and actions fall upon entire nations, not individuals. The sad fact is that of all the smart people taking an active part in discussions like this (and most are smart as you can tell from the rational viewpoints and well structured arguments) around the world, we only represent a tiny portion of the worlds population. A majority of people will just "go with the flow" and do whatever everyone else does.
Classic examples of this are the Crusades and the Islam reaction to the recent cartoons. As far as I know, most religions advocate peace but are corrupted by greeed and personal values and the followers do exactly that. They follow others. People get caught up with emotions and lose all sense of individuality and reason.
I'd like to think I'm not a pessimist but I don't see an end to all of this.
I do agree however that Islam may have it's good sides, but the bad things in it and the extremists certainly aren't helping the rest of the world to see their religion as anything more than a westerner hating and freedom opressing religion.

man that is a very bleak view - I think the problem is quite the opposite - humans are so caught up in individual rights we cant agree on anything - that is not sheep like

the reason it appears like people go with the flow is because people dont tend to care too much about things that arent in their immediate view in fron t of them - that's not sheep like, that's more wolf like, there's just too many of us for it to work properly

and unfortunately, while the extremists certainly arent helping, they are actually a very small minority indeed - much smaller than the "smart people taking an active part in discussions like this" you mentioned - it's just our media LOVES a sensational story like that, and the governments are seizing upon that and using it to sell their oppressive and immoral agendas to support big business.

Actually, on the whole I feel things like Islam if left to be peaceful (i.e. not having their muslim brothers fucked over and kicked out of their land or invaded) is much more conducive to peace and harmony than western culture. Any muslims I've spoken to on the topic see it as an Islamic duty to defend yourself and your brethren - they are the oppressed, not the aggressors.

[Keyser Soze]

and unfortunately, while the extremists certainly arent helping, they are actually a very small minority indeed - much smaller than the "smart people taking an active part in discussions like this" you mentioned - it's just our media LOVES a sensational story like that, and the governments are seizing upon that and using it to sell their oppressive and immoral agendas to support big business.

Part of what you say is true, but nevertheless, that minority is still cause for concern. That small minority caused a huge upheavel in for example Afghanistan (the Taliban) and took the country back into the dark ages. Similar groups are trying to do the same in Egypt and Saoudi Arabia.

Actually, on the whole I feel things like Islam if left to be peaceful (i.e. not having their muslim brothers fucked over and kicked out of their land or invaded) is much more conducive to peace and harmony than western culture. Any muslims I've spoken to on the topic see it as an Islamic duty to defend yourself and your brethren - they are the oppressed, not the aggressors.

Well what about the Sh'ite and Sunni problem? I'd hardly call people blowing each other apart for the sake of blind, unshakeable faith (a faith that might not even be true anyway), with no room for compromise, that conducive to peace and harmony. If you mean that the Israel/Palestine issue is where muslim brothers are kicked out of their land (which was Israel anyway), well M.Breqs addressed that point so well earlier in this thread.

[forge]

and unfortunately, while the extremists certainly arent helping, they are actually a very small minority indeed - much smaller than the "smart people taking an active part in discussions like this" you mentioned - it's just our media LOVES a sensational story like that, and the governments are seizing upon that and using it to sell their oppressive and immoral agendas to support big business.

Part of what you say is true, but nevertheless, that minority is still cause for concern. That small minority caused a huge upheavel in for example Afghanistan (the Taliban) and took the country back into the dark ages. Similar groups are trying to do the same in Egypt and Saoudi Arabia.

Actually, on the whole I feel things like Islam if left to be peaceful (i.e. not having their muslim brothers fucked over and kicked out of their land or invaded) is much more conducive to peace and harmony than western culture. Any muslims I've spoken to on the topic see it as an Islamic duty to defend yourself and your brethren - they are the oppressed, not the aggressors.

Well what about the Sh'ite and Sunni problem? I'd hardly call people blowing each other apart for the sake of blind, unshakeable faith (a faith that might not even be true anyway), with no room for compromise, that conducive to peace and harmony. If you mean that the Israel/Palestine issue is where muslim brothers are kicked out of their land (which was Israel anyway), well M.Breqs addressed that point so well earlier in this thread.

well, a minority may or may not be cause for concern - on the scale the US is dealing any way - The UK dealt with the IRA without spending 300 millon a day waging a viscious campaign on some unrelated country. It was a lingering problem for a long time, and I'm certainly not saying the ULK solved it, but I'm saying it was lived with without invading anyone and killing 39-100 thousand civillians - RECENTLY I'm tlking about

afganistan may well have been a necessity - I've never argued that - they were harbouring the taliban

but Iraq has never been nor will be legitimately justified

and as for Sunni Shi'ite - the point is, they werent actually blowing each other apart before the "liberation" - they were dealing with it - whether through fear of Saddam, who knows or cares, but there has been testament from Iraqis who say that under Saddam they could walk the streets of Baghdad at 1 am with their children and feel safe - that concept now is beyond ridiculous.

Look, we can argue this until we have no breath left in our lungs, but the simple truth is the arguments for invading Iraq are amazingly feeble and since WMD was obviously bullshit, nothing at all has replaced it except oil.

[Keyser Soze]

but Iraq has never been nor will be legitimately justified

Look, we can argue this until we have no breath left in our lungs, but the simple truth is the arguments for invading Iraq are amazingly feeble and since WMD was obviously bullshit, nothing at all has replaced it except oil.

I agree !!

[Machinesworking]

but Iraq has never been nor will be legitimately justified

Look, we can argue this until we have no breath left in our lungs, but the simple truth is the arguments for invading Iraq are amazingly feeble and since WMD was obviously bullshit, nothing at all has replaced it except oil.

I agree !!

That sums it up.

[b0unce]

well, I think we all know that to begin with...

[glu]

fun thread, i was thinking... why don't we all write letters to Bush? Everyone!
or email. what's his email address>?

[forge]

but Iraq has never been nor will be legitimately justified

Look, we can argue this until we have no breath left in our lungs, but the simple truth is the arguments for invading Iraq are amazingly feeble and since WMD was obviously bullshit, nothing at all has replaced it except oil.

I agree !!

That sums it up.

what were we talking about? oh yeah that fucking orange dot!

[DeadlyKungFu]

I agree !!

That sums it up.

what were we talking about? oh yeah that fucking orange dot!

it's a Weapon of Music Destruction

[forge]

That sums it up.

what were we talking about? oh yeah that fucking orange dot!

it's a Weapon of Music Destruction

BTW - just saw your sig again and it reminded me - I've been doing a new mix with that sample we were talking about - I'll post something soon - maybe tonight!

[Chris J]

yes I pee in the shower

[mikemc]

Bush Demands That Iran Halt Production of Long Letters
May 13, 2006
By Andy Borowitz (and others)

Days after receiving an 18-page letter from Iranian president Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad, President George W. Bush called the lengthy missive "an act
of war" and demanded that Iran halt its production of long letters at
once.

At the White House, aides said that writing a letter of such length to
President Bush, who is known for his extreme distaste for reading, was
the most provocative act Mr. Ahmadinejad could have possibly committed.
They said they were waiting for Israel to tell them how to respond.

"Everyone knows that the last book the president read was 'My Pet
Goat,'" one aide said. "Expecting him to read an 18-page letter is
really asking for it, and that Iranian dude must have known that."

According to those close to Mr. Bush, the president was infuriated upon
receipt of the 18-page letter and asked aides if it was some kind of
joke.

The president then demanded that the letter be boiled down to a one- or
two-page format, or possibly adapted to a DVD version, just as he had
ordered for news reports on Hurricane Katrina.

In Tehran, President Ahmadinejad said he was "taken aback" by Mr. Bush's
refusal to read an 18-page letter, but said that all his future
communications to the U.S. president would be in short, easy-to-read
instant-messaging format.

In his first IM to President Bush, released to the press today,
President Ahmadinejad writes, "Am building nukes. R U angry? LOL."

Elsewhere, Air Force Gen. Michael V. Hayden vowed today that as director
of the CIA he would push the agency to find more and better sources of
false intelligence and would be flying to Tel Aviv at once.

[b0unce]

LOL!

i wonder if anyone disagrees that israeli interest groups are dictating american foreign policy....

[M. Bréqs]

LOL!

i wonder if anyone disagrees that israeli interest groups are dictating american foreign policy....

I would be one. Many factors influence US foreign policy. Israel is only one small part of that. For the most part, partisanship between the Democrats and Republicans is the major driving force.