(ot) HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY AMERICANS!

[robtronik]

2) remove obvious threats like saddam

but the POINT IS saddam was NO THREAT TO THE US WHATSOEVER - he was even a bit beyond being much of one to his own people by 2003

Let me ask you guys: what would you have done after 9/11?

Gimme some understanding of what you would have done if you were President of the U.S.

rob.

1. alot of the homeland stuff that actually did happen - and was probably all that was needed
2. go into afganistan where the actual training camps were
3. Not invade Iraq

that's a start. I guess then we only disagree on Iraq. That means we are in a majority agreement!!! 66% ain't bad.

Iraq appears to be the stickler. And, if you think about it, if we all chipped in to help them set up their government (as your PM has done - and we appreciate it) we would all be in a better place now.

But we've got Iran and Syria and former Batthists as well as Al Q. in there doing their damndest to not let Iraq turn into a democracy. Its a fight worth going through and now that Saddam is no longer there, he is one less leader (who has invaded other countries and used WMDs) we have to worry about w/ regard to terrorism.

BTW, check this out. From the documents found and confiscated from Iraq after he was removed from power:

This document is a letter from the Director of the Criminal Department, Na'man Ali Muhammad, to the Director of the Iraqi Intelligence Service, dated September 4, 1999:

Mr. Muhammad indicated that the International Inspection Committee would be inspecting the Al-Rashad location, among other locations, looking for non-conventional weapons and other chemical agents. He added that the following procedures were implemented on the fifth month of this year [TC: May 1999] in order to prevent disclosure of the locations:
1- Relocate all I[raqi] I[ntelligence] S[ervice] documents

2- Relocate all IIS chemical materials and equipment

3- Designate a group of employees from the Ministry of Health to replace the IIS employees

4- Relocate some of the officers and employees, whose job descriptions are not compatible with the Ministry of Health to Al-Rashidiah, and implement other appropriate concealment procedures.

He continues to state that present situation of the Directorate could be extended for an unspecified period of time. This situation could frequently reoccur, which has a direct negative impact on the performance and duties of the Directorate, with regards to providing essential levels of security. Consequently, the location of the site could be discovered. In addition the Ministry of Health may not be able to afford releasing its employees for a long period of time. Also, the presence of the Ministry of Health employees, and their integration with our employees, is a security breach. The close location of the directorate to other public locations, such as Al-Thaurah and Hay AlSinak, makes it a non-secure location. He added that the location is within the range of the enemy’s coordinates, and that special attention should be given to the collaborators who are present within these areas. The following alternate locations were suggested:

1- The Technical Research Center located on Palestine Street (previous Olympic Committee), since part of its Criminology Research Department was transferred to the Criminology Department.

2- Scientific Research Center, since it contains some laboratories that can be used for the work of the Criminology Department.

interesting stuff now coming out about Saddam's activities. And we all wonder why he was in defiance of U.N. Security Council Resolutions for 14 years ... Yeah, give him the benefit of the doubt.

rob.

[stinky]

Let me ask you guys: what would you have done after 9/11?

What's funny is almost no 'liberal' rejected the invasion of afghanistan.

Iraq is completely a different story and leaves a sour taste in everybody's mouth. Especially since the job could have been done by his father, more easily than a reinvasion. What strikes me as ruthless is that, when we were there, and the iraqi people were begging us to finish the job for their sake, we stood by and watched Saddam kill the uprising that Bush Sr was fostering. Nothing says "War for Oil" more than that. Why do you think they were weary of the US coming over this time, when we could have saved them 10 years of grief and starvation that was the US's fault, plain and simple.

http://mondediplo.com/1998/03/04iraqkn

http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/bushsr-iraq.htm

And, Iraq wasn't involved in 9/11... there was never any proof of that, even in the run up to war. Additionally, Iraq couldn't have had weapons of mass destruction, because they were under sanctions. It was fucking obvious then, when Bush Co were making the case for war, and it's obvious now. If they destroyed their WMD, where are the remains of that threat? If it was a threat, there would have been some evidence of something, somewhere.

Honestly, no one can argue with defending your own territory. Afghanistan was 'tolerable' as long as it was swift, and calculated.. but nothing came out of it... where's osama?

There's nothing justified in attacking a country that hasn't attacked you, and doesn't even have the capability to.

You wanna how to fight a terrorist network? The same way terrorists operate. The spy networks.. Infilatrate those camps... use that intel for defense.. Terrorism is nothing new.. most of the rest of the world has been fighting terrorism on their own ground for years.. but you don't see them attacking countries that have nothing to do with that organization.

Saddam's Iraq was secular... the US was attacked by Jihadists. It's fucking plain as day... there's no connection. They didn't even like each other.

Going on the attack... occupying foreign territory... accosting civilian population in a manner that's not civil, and ruins their possibilities for normal lives.. that only fosters a feeling of hate, and breed your terrorist network. There was no terrorist network in Iraq before the US invaded. It's just a fallacy to perpetuate an illigitimate war.

Being an empire of a country, attacking a weak country.. that only perpetuates the David & Goliath, underdog myth for these people.

Holding back, showing mercy and restraint in the face of aggression, and rigorous defense is the only way to combat something like this. No one would ever blame the US for defending itself.. but you can believe that everyone will be pissed about the bully on the block picking the little guy..

I have to agree with Forge... I don't think anything besides better security, at airports and in general have been the reasons that we haven't been attacked since 2001. I don't think attacking Iraq and wasting billions on nation building have made the US any safer. In fact, i feel the opposite. I'm surprised that the US hasn't been attacked since, and it's not because of lack of attempts. Again, i think the only way to fight terrorists are staying security conscious, good intel, and stopping our policies of aggression. Start to level the playing field for the rest of humanity. Instead of spending all this money to wage war, the wealthiest country in the world should be buying friend's through food and education.

Going back to your statement before about SA and colonization:

http://www.killercoke.org/crimes.htm

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB4/index.html

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB5/index.html

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSA ... aebb8i.htm

http://www.cadtm.org/article.php3?id_article=742

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00861.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/features/water/business.html


Just because the institutions Progress and Evolve with time doesn't mean they're not the same thing. Instead of governments colonizing, the corporations that run our goverments do that for us. They collude with our intelligence services to keep providing them with fodder, slave, and resources. It's a vicious circle, and it's the same kind of colonization that forge was talking about in India. A colony starts with resources, and trading. Once you've divested a certain amount of monetary influence, time, etc... it's worth more to impose your will, than to just walk away when the natives realize they're getting swindled. Keep em under your thumb, and make them your subjects... it's slavery, no different... research the rubber barons that were supplying the Big 5 in Detroit with their tires.... that's fucking slavery man, pure and simple. It's so simple... the CIA keeps the governments in line, so that multinationals can come in a plunder the resources and use cheap manpower as slave labor.


As far as your personaly attacks on me... I have many friend's and fortunately, their intelligent enough, and sensitive to their environment enough to be able to think for themselves... I have no use for fake acquantances, like most people here. I'm far from an extremist, or a fundamentalist. I don't try to impose my will on others, and i'm willing to have honest debate with anyone. i'm about as much of an extremist as Michael Moore, John Kerry, John Stewart, Naomi Klein, etc, etc... I just happen to put a high value on social conscience.

I consider Bush and Co as much a fundamentalist as anyone in 'al qaeda'.. if you don't feel that way, then you've no idea what the Neo-Con agenda is, or who Leo Strauss is, and what these people are willing to do with their 'ends justify their means' attitude. Strauss actually fosters a belief that a stable political order requires an external threat and that if an external threat does not exist, one should be manufactured. He actually taught this as a professor at the University of Chicago to people in this administration. He's considered the father of the Neo-Conservative movement.

Do some research.. this stuff is not fiction. There are plenty of resources out there. The Neo-Conservative movement is fucking scary. They're fascist, plain and simple.

[stinky]

2- Relocate all IIS chemical materials and equipment

Oh please.. you're talking about this

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/bw-isg.htm

and this:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/libra ... -anx-b.htm

and this:

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/06/21/dod ... -santorum/

interesting stuff now coming out about Saddam's activities. And we all wonder why he was in defiance of U.N. Security Council Resolutions for 14 years ... Yeah, give him the benefit of the doubt.

Any WMD's that Iraq had was given to them by the US... even the gas that was used to kill the kurds. Don't be so gullible.

[eyeknow]

it was a joke, and a rather clever one.....in case you didn't get it. Oh.....is that because you don't know any history about OZ? again.....the research thing.....

Man, you're thick, of course i know my history. I was referring to the fact that the US doesn't really have much place telling Australia that they're young... who's the thick one, dopehead.. i've probably got a better understanding of history that most of the jokers around here..

well, that's another really great response. Highly topical........

OH, btw, I fucked up when doing the quotes....sorry about that.....theres more for 'ya than the little blurb at the end.

[eyeknow]

colonizers always see their roles as "helping" to educate the poor, stupid heathens. what they fail to realize is that no one asked them for their damn help, and that self-determination will result in a stronger effort than forced "democracy". and historically, those being "helped" are usually just "helped" to death and those who live end up driving their "helpers" right the fuck out of their country. sound familiar?

this mindset has played itself out over and over and over throughout history. and yet countries still keep thinking the results will be different.

bah! read a frickin history book. the playbook is right there and no one bothers to read it.

right, how is our Japanese and Germany colony going? I'm sure they would agree that they are colonized by the U.S. because of our WWII occupation and the helping set up of their new governments.

Again, read a book too. Maybe you might see that we aren't the british in the 17th and 18th century.

rob.

totally.

[eyeknow]

Right, and how about Japan or Germany. Those were total failures, right?

I fail to see how anyone can compare invading Iraq with WWII.. that's pure idiocy.

you should be banned from debating for LIFE.........WOW, that's just not even remotely logical.....but ok........have fun

[stinky]

you should be banned from debating for LIFE.........WOW, that's just not even remotely logical.....but ok........have fun

please expand this on subject so that we can marvel in your brilliance... it worked wonders for rob... let's see what you have to offer...

[eyeknow]

There is no current real terrorist threat to american people or if there is, it's far more likely to have been made worse by the Iraq invasion

Yes!! It's good to hear someone making sense for a change. I really hate the way rob makes everything out to be black and white. It's just really annoying because there's this middle ground that he never touches on in any of his arguments.

Stinky, seriously.......where do you live?

Tell ya what, I'll drive out there, wherever it is and help you pack! I'm thinking that a move to iraq would do you good. There you will be much happier. Clearly, you are not happy being in the usa.......and canada won't take you

[forge]

you should be banned from debating for LIFE.........WOW, that's just not even remotely logical.....but ok........have fun

please expand this on subject so that we can marvel in your brilliance... it worked wonders for rob... let's see what you have to offer...

yeah I'm a little confused about that

[eyeknow]

you should be banned from debating for LIFE.........WOW, that's just not even remotely logical.....but ok........have fun

please expand this on subject so that we can marvel in your brilliance... it worked wonders for rob... let's see what you have to offer...

No, I've been feelin' it lately.........I like the fact that you have all your facist/radical/one sided propaganda yuck.

You couldn't be convinced that we breath oxygen!

Print this thread, take it to some history teachers..........real ones....not the 13 year-old filling in for Ms. Reily! See what they have to say......

If I'm wrong...........cool......I like learning........so be it..........

[eyeknow]

you should be banned from debating for LIFE.........WOW, that's just not even remotely logical.....but ok........have fun

please expand this on subject so that we can marvel in your brilliance... it worked wonders for rob... let's see what you have to offer...

yeah I'm a little confused about that

Not surprised

[forge]

There's nothing justified in attacking a country that hasn't attacked you, and doesn't even have the capability to.
....
The Neo-Conservative movement is fucking scary. They're fascist, plain and simple.

Nice big post (again) erm...stinky - doo you have a name BTW - I just cant call yyou that!



@Rob-I think you'll find that's the case for alot of people - the whole world sympathised with the people of NY on 9/11 - and like stinky said Afganistan was tolerated too for that reason - a link could be made

but during the lead up to the Iraq invasion it was like they'd just suddenly lost the plot - people were wondering what the hell were they playing at

then it started to look really suspicious - obviously the only reason people could think of to invade this practically defenseles country (remember in 91 they did it in a few days - before any sanctions) was oil.

but they're saying it's in the name of humanitarian reasons - well that doesnt make any sense considering at the same time literally MILLIONS of people in africa were really, really suffering - so it became clear it was about oil. Suddenly 9/11 becomes not so much a terrible thing that happened to US people but an excuse to start shaping their new world order

so you can see how it looks to the rest of the world?

[forge]

please expand this on subject so that we can marvel in your brilliance... it worked wonders for rob... let's see what you have to offer...

yeah I'm a little confused about that

Not surprised

...o k then....well make sure you dont use one of these

[eyeknow]

Anyways......hats off to ya........I'm outie.......AGAIN

I tried many times to get everyone to back off from each other and chill so we could be friends and not fuckin' hate each other......even stinky (but NEVER mercyplease!)

But it's not going to happen.........so ok, again..........it's cool.

[stinky]

Stinky, seriously.......where do you live?

Tell ya what, I'll drive out there, wherever it is and help you pack! I'm thinking that a move to iraq would do you good. There you will be much happier. Clearly, you are not happy being in the usa.......and canada won't take you Laughing

I've probably lived in more places than you've ever been to.... But, interestingly enough.. if you're such an expert on the middle east, have you ever lived there? I have.. I know exactly what's it's like, and how the people are. I know that the US is not making any friends anywhere in the world. When i lived in the EU, i was constantly attacked for being an american.. to the point where i had to just tell people that i was canadian, just so i wouldn't have to get harrassed.

As for leaving the US, i actually know that i make a difference here, which is one of the reasons i came back. I'm here trying to help make it better, not sitting here closing my eyes to the problems and blindingly being "patriotic" without questioning authority. I'm not going to let people like you and rob perpetuate idiotic notions of granduer and righteousness without even a clue about the consequences. Cause and Effect. I firmly believe in that.