[rsu] Sampler does not reproduce correctly Drum Kits in SF2

[hoffman2k]

Maybe an import tool would do the trick. I know this isn't possible for a near update. But i like to share the idea anyway...

When you locate a file to import in the browser, you should have the option to convert it to:

- 1 sampler

- A rack of samplers with a single sampler for each keyzone and/or layer

- A rack of simplers with a single simpler for each keyzone and/or layer

I believe that this would be a major key to provide the best import solution that Ableton can provide.

[Ralf]

Hoffmann2k,

you leave me a bit confused, cause we support keyzones
and layering, and we already create a rack of samplers
for envelopes (max 8 samplers).

I read again poshooks posting, and everything
seems a little more complicated, maybe it's not the
envelopes.

You know, today is holiday here in germany (reunification
day, we just watched "Goodbye Lenin" with the family, it's a
great movie even if you watch it the third time), but tomorrow
I'll be back in the company and download what poshook
referred to and see what can be done.

Ralf

[hoffman2k]

Hoffmann2k,

you leave me a bit confused, cause we support keyzones
and layering, and we already create a rack of samplers
for envelopes (max 8 samplers).

I read again poshooks posting, and everything
seems a little more complicated, maybe it's not the
envelopes.

You know, today is holiday here in germany (reunification
day, we just watched "Goodbye Lenin" with the family, it's a
great movie even if you watch it the third time), but tomorrow
I'll be back in the company and download what poshook
referred to and see what can be done.

Ralf

Ah. I wasn't aware that Live already imported files to multiple samplers..
I tested this app the whole summer and I still don't know what i does

I'll check it out.

Cheers

- Bjorn

[Pasha]

Hoffmann2k,

you leave me a bit confused, cause we support keyzones
and layering, and we already create a rack of samplers
for envelopes (max 8 samplers).

I read again poshooks posting, and everything
seems a little more complicated, maybe it's not the
envelopes.

You know, today is holiday here in germany (reunification
day, we just watched "Goodbye Lenin" with the family, it's a
great movie even if you watch it the third time), but tomorrow
I'll be back in the company and download what poshook
referred to and see what can be done.

Ralf

Hi Ralf.
It was me (Pasha) not Poshook signaling material to download...we have confusing IDs...

Just for your info you can download everything except the MIDI GM drum Loop, unless you wanna buy it, for 19$ . It's a pity I cannot attach one here, do you know a way I can do it?
What is strange is that the 1/16 drum notes are played as clicks while the 1/4 drum notes go close to what is right. I think sfz free sf2 player do not plays with envelopes, it only reproduces the sample. You can easily do this without my Midi Loops, you can create one on your own using 1/16th notes.
Let me know if you want an e-mail with one of my MIDI loops attached, or if you know a way I can post it somewhere on the web for free.

Hope it helps.

PS : Goodbye Lenin it's one of my favourite movies...

[poshook]

But I do not agree with hoffman2k and Ralf excusing bug in conversion because Sampler is not for drums. It does not matter for what it is, important is only full compatibility with particular formats

Poshook,

I'm afraid that each sampler may be compatible only to the
extend of the features it supports. 100% compatibility means
100% equal parameters and operation, the samplers should be equal.

But if you take any two samplers, especially the powerful ones, the
common features they support are only 50 or maybe 70% of all
features. In fact, there is a hard competition between manufacturers
to invent new cool features which the others don't support.

Soundfont2 is a particularly open and rich format which allows
to specify much more than any sampler understands.

Ableton Sampler has only global envelopes. On the other hand,
drum kits typically require different envelopes for each sample.
So, Ableton Sampler is not designed for drumkits, and it is not
promoted as such.

I hate to say it, but you will have no big success in playing drum
kits imported from sf2 with Ableton Sampler. But if you want to import
other kinds of instruments, like keys, strings or wind instruments,
from sf2, I'm sure you will have a good time.

Concerning parameters which can be represented in Live Sampler,
we are working permanently on the improvement of their import,
by fixing bugs and implementing a better and more complete mapping.

Ralf

Hallo Ralf,

I do not need any other special features to be right converted except right sample position and tuning. If I convert SF2 drums, I often must change Scale value to 0% by hand because of untuned sounds....
I use NI Kontakt 1.x several years as a sampler for everything and there is no problem to get these basic settings from imported SF2 also for drums.

Your Sampler is very good tool and I am sure that this is only a little bug not problem of the main concept

[Pasha]

But I do not agree with hoffman2k and Ralf excusing bug in conversion because Sampler is not for drums. It does not matter for what it is, important is only full compatibility with particular formats

Poshook,

I'm afraid that each sampler may be compatible only to the
extend of the features it supports. 100% compatibility means
100% equal parameters and operation, the samplers should be equal.

But if you take any two samplers, especially the powerful ones, the
common features they support are only 50 or maybe 70% of all
features. In fact, there is a hard competition between manufacturers
to invent new cool features which the others don't support.

Soundfont2 is a particularly open and rich format which allows
to specify much more than any sampler understands.

Ableton Sampler has only global envelopes. On the other hand,
drum kits typically require different envelopes for each sample.
So, Ableton Sampler is not designed for drumkits, and it is not
promoted as such.

I hate to say it, but you will have no big success in playing drum
kits imported from sf2 with Ableton Sampler. But if you want to import
other kinds of instruments, like keys, strings or wind instruments,
from sf2, I'm sure you will have a good time.

Concerning parameters which can be represented in Live Sampler,
we are working permanently on the improvement of their import,
by fixing bugs and implementing a better and more complete mapping.

Ralf

Hallo Ralf,

I do not need any other special features to be right converted except right sample position and tuning. If I convert SF2 drums, I often must change Scale value to 0% by hand because of untuned sounds....
I use NI Kontakt 1.x several years as a sampler for everything and there is no problem to get these basic settings from imported SF2 also for drums.

Your Sampler is very good tool and I am sure that this is only a little bug not problem of the main concept

poshook,

Are you experiencing the strange 1/16th notes played as clicks or attacks and 1/4th notes played almost right I was describing?

- Best
- Pasha

[Ralf]

Pasha,

I've downloaded 8MBGMGSFX and did an A/B comparision
for the drum sets with sfz plugin in the other track.

I played the drums with a keyboard. One difference
I hear is that the velocity to volume curve is different,
but otherwise they sound equal...

Ahh, now I see, the reverbed sounds in the
Room preset are cut by the short release in Samplers
volume envelope. So its the envelope in the end.
They have all different release rates in the envelopes.

If I set the release time to a larger value, then
the unlooped samples sound equal, but some looped samples
like Med Crash Cymbal might sound too long then, so thats
not a general solution.

So, poshook, unfortunately we have no workaround here,
what I wrote about drumkits, envelopes and Sampler
remains valid here.

Ralf

[Pasha]

Pasha,

I've downloaded 8MBGMGSFX and did an A/B comparision
for the drum sets with sfz plugin in the other track.

I played the drums with a keyboard. One difference
I hear is that the velocity to volume curve is different,
but otherwise they sound equal...

Ahh, now I see, the reverbed sounds in the
Room preset are cut by the short release in Samplers
volume envelope. So its the envelope in the end.
They have all different release rates in the envelopes.

If I set the release time to a larger value, then
the unlooped samples sound equal, but some looped samples
like Med Crash Cymbal might sound too long then, so thats
not a general solution.

So, poshook, unfortunately we have no workaround here,
what I wrote about drumkits, envelopes and Sampler
remains valid here.

Ralf

Hi Ralf,

Thanks 4 testing.
When you play with keyboard it works, because you're not triggering 1/16th notes. It's when you play MIDI clips with 1/16th notes that it doesn't work.

- Best
- Pasha

[Ralf]

When you play with keyboard it works, because you're not triggering 1/16th notes. It's when you play MIDI clips with 1/16th notes that it doesn't work.

Yes, I played short notes on the keyboard and then it happens.
It's the release rate, so unfortunately we cannot do anything at the moment.

Ralf

[Pasha]

When you play with keyboard it works, because you're not triggering 1/16th notes. It's when you play MIDI clips with 1/16th notes that it doesn't work.

Yes, I played short notes on the keyboard and then it happens.
It's the release rate, so unfortunately we cannot do anything at the moment.

Ralf

Thanks. Hoped my description helped you so far.

- Best
- Pasha