OT... Saddam is executed. Right thing to do?

[muscleandhate]

Actually, the US does need to be involved; without US weapons and support, Israel would be in much greater peril than it is now. Israel's survival is in our interests. Without Israel, we wouldn't have a single rational and cooperative ally in the middle east.

You're correct, though I'd word it somewhat differentrly. In the absence of Israel, the US would not have a right-wing, highly armed, relatively stable and aggressive regime in a region where the West, especially the US and the UK, have considerable interests. The region itself being notoriously difficult to dominate, relatively unstable and of course, the worlds largest known deposits of that mineral that keeps the US Army in power and it's economy running.

Israel is far and away the most pluralist, democratic and liberal state in the region.

The Israeli state is neither pluralist, nor democratic, nor liberal... Unless of course you're working from exceptionally warped definitions of these concepts.

Let me state this; The second best foreign policy decision made in the 20th century was the creation of Israel. The best foreign policy decision was to give them the support necessary (including nuclear technology) to guarantee their survival into the 21st century.

Words quite literally fail me.

[TomTom]

I know who needs an evil dictator...this forum! These OT posts are like car wrecks.

[M. Bréqs]

hmmm the mood is darkening

... yes. a hung dictator, an occupied nation, civil war, hundreds of thousands dead, weapons of mass destruction, beheadings, bombings, nukes, mines, depleted uranium, white phospus ....orphans

Ya, its been shits & giggles till someone called M breqs a 'bitch'

I guess I'm guilty for opening the hostilities on this thread... "twit" can sometimes be a hurtful word. Many appologies to Dex Methorphan.

But what hurts me more is when I see people confused over who the enemy is. George is an idiot, but he's not genocidal. He has good intentions (the continued affluence and comfort of my own civilization). The only way I could understand somebody siding with Ahmadinejad over Bush (or Saddam over Bush) is if they're an insane Islamic Jihadist bent on dominating the West. For anybody else on the planet, they should realize that the United States is acting in their best interests.

[popslut]

The only way I could understand somebody siding with Ahmadinejad over Bush (or Saddam over Bush) is if they're an insane Islamic Jihadist bent on dominating the West.

Thats because you get all of your information from the mainstream news media and you lack the intellectual curiosity to question it.

For anybody else on the planet, they should realize that the United States is acting in their best interests.

I worry about people like you.

[Machinesworking]

But what hurts me more is when I see people confused over who the enemy is. George is an idiot, but he's not genocidal. He has good intentions (the continued affluence and comfort of my own civilization). The only way I could understand somebody siding with Ahmadinejad over Bush (or Saddam over Bush) is if they're an insane Islamic Jihadist bent on dominating the West. For anybody else on the planet, they should realize that the United States is acting in their best interests.

That's where you come across badly mbreqs, you break it down to for us or against us, as if it's that simple.

I don't care if the US is acting in 'my own best interest'. That says NOTHING about whether that action is wrong or not. An idiot will kill innocent people for 'freedom'.......
this isn't about being a pussy liberal etc. the simple FACT is the country that most cares about whether others countries get nukes for example, is the only country on this planet proven to be capable of using them!
The west does not give a shit about freedom outside it's own borders, and that has been a proven fact, over and over again. Why it's somehow impossible for you to care about that, I don't know? that's why I've called you a social darwinist in the past, this inability to see that the system that keeps you happy, enslaves and lessons the quality of life in other counties to do so.

[Meef Chaloin]

the only interests bush is looking after are his & his cronies economic ones

[djadonis206]

killing people for killing people is not justice

but we have the death penalty in several states and use it somewhat often so you know - it happens

why are people talking about George Bush I thought the thread was about Saddam? Curious

a

[12micsn1]

So was it the right thing to do or not?

Bad idea an bad outcome for it.

[M. Bréqs]

Thats because you get all of your information from the mainstream news media and you lack the intellectual curiosity to question it.

I'll start by saying that you're making a pretty uninformed assumption, unless you somehow have a camera in my house that shows you what newspapers I read and what websites I visit. Now that I've "informed" you, I can assure you that the mainstream media in Canada is quite leftist, and anti-American. Because of this, I'm quite well read and routinely inform myself from a variety of sources. So check your assumptions at the door before you start to fling poo around there bucko.

Most folks who've been on this forum for a while and tolerated my opinions realize that I'm not a mindless zombie. I'm fully aware of the fact that my society lives more comfortably than the rest of the world - I've just decided that I'm cool with that.

It's been demonstrated throughout history that power abhors a vacuum. SOMEBODY MUST BE ON TOP. If there were no American domination of the globe's economy, then somebody else would be doing it. And I can tell you this; Yes, American Capitalism is unfair to some. However this planet would be a MUCH worse place if the globe were dominated by Chinese communists, modern slavery exemplified in an Indian Caste system, or (worst of all) an Islamic Theocratic Caliphate that forces my mom into a Burkah, denies my spouse medical treatment, and stones one of my friends to death for the heinous crime of being gay.

So, am I uninformed? No. I'm only trying to get across a complex message that loses impact in a world of simpleton sound-bites. So I'll try to dumb it down as much as possible for popslut and any other shortsighted America haters; Be careful what you wish for people, things are pretty decent right now and you're asking for it to be flushed down the toilet.

I worry about people like you.

You've no need to be. I'm not worried about people like you. In fact, people like me make sure that people like you are free to worry about whatever you damn well please.

You're welcome.

[M. Bréqs]

That's where you come across badly mbreqs, you break it down to for us or against us, as if it's that simple.

I don't care if the US is acting in 'my own best interest'. That says NOTHING about whether that action is wrong or not. An idiot will kill innocent people for 'freedom'.......
this isn't about being a pussy liberal etc. the simple FACT is the country that most cares about whether others countries get nukes for example, is the only country on this planet proven to be capable of using them!
The west does not give a shit about freedom outside it's own borders, and that has been a proven fact, over and over again. Why it's somehow impossible for you to care about that, I don't know? that's why I've called you a social darwinist in the past, this inability to see that the system that keeps you happy, enslaves and lessons the quality of life in other counties to do so.

As stated above Machinesworking, there is no power, no civilization, no state, no union, no co-operative, no individual, no corporation that will act in the way you want them to. NOBODY WITH POWER ON THIS PLANET WILL EVER ACT JUSTLY FOR EVERYBODY. If you hinder America's strength by attacking the national morale, you're only opening the door for something much worse.

What alternative do you have to American hegemony? Happy fun fantasy government? It's naive. I'm not a "with us or against us" (that's an oversimplification of my arguement), I just see the United States as the best possible global power given all the alternatives. It's not fair for everybody, it can never be. But the US is the least of all evils.

...And you should care that the US is acting in your best interest my friend, because no other state or civilization ever will.

Your hunger for global justice is admirable, but based in a fantasy. The enemies of our civilization will use naivite such as yours to undermine us. If they succeed, the whole planet will be far more fucked for everybody, not just North Americans / West Europeans.

Why it's somehow impossible for you to care about that, I don't know? that's why I've called you a social darwinist in the past, this inability to see that the system that keeps you happy, enslaves and lessons the quality of life in other counties to do so.

Dude, I do care to a degree. I care about myself and my family first. Then I care about my neighbourhood, but only after my family are safe and comfortable. Then, if my neighbourhood is in good shape, I'll care about my city, then my province, then my country, then my civilization, THEN the globe. My loyalty is like an onion, with consecutive layers.

Does that make me a social darwinist? Possibly, but I doubt it. Why? Because I think that I would fit the definition of a social darwinist if I didn't care about other societies at all. That's not the case. I honestly believe that Western Civilization is the best on the planet. The West abolished slavery while EVERY other society still practiced it. The West returned democracy to the planet. The West created women's emancipation. The West are responsible for the marvelous state of today's technology. The West has set an example for other civilizations to choose to follow or not. I think it's stupid to try to impose our system on others (eg. Iraq) but I believe that we must defend, with utmost vigour, our fellow citizens of the West (eg. Israel).

Are we perfect? Hell no. We're still trying to implement our ideals into practice, a process that we have on occasion fucked up. But at least our ideals are moving us in the right direction. Every other society on the planet with the potential (and desire) to rule the globe wants to turn all that back. I will dutifully kill people if called upon by my nation, in order to make sure that doesn't happen.

[Machinesworking]

[It's been demonstrated throughout history that power abhors a vacuum. SOMEBODY MUST BE ON TOP. If there were no American domination of the globe's economy, then somebody else would be doing it. And I can tell you this; Yes, American Capitalism is unfair to some. However this planet would be a MUCH worse place if the globe were dominated by Chinese communists, modern slavery exemplified in an Indian Caste system, or (worst of all) an Islamic Theocratic Caliphate that forces my mom into a Burkah, denies my spouse medical treatment, and stones one of my friends to death for the heinous crime of being gay.

None of that explains the Iraq war. The USA as long as we have the highest level of technology, will never have to worry about an Islamic fundamentalist takeover, and insinuating that it's a possibility, is poor logic my friend.

So I'll try to dumb it down as much as possible for popslut and any other shortsighted America haters; Be careful what you wish for people, things are pretty decent right now and you're asking for it to be flushed down the toilet.

I worry about people like you.

You've no need to be. I'm not worried about people like you. In fact, people like me make sure that people like you are free to worry about whatever you damn well please.

You're welcome.

OK, again, for the 100,000nth time How does attacking a sovereign nation, going against the general opinion of the entire planet, and generally making the Iraqi people go through a worse hell than Saddam did, make us safe??
We can talk all we want about the lack of freedom in Saddam's Iraq, but I'm dead sure the people themselves are even more afraid of the US military than they ever were of Saddam.
I think it does the opposite, and will for hundreds of years after, war, especially half baked aggressive war reeking of colonialism, leaves lasting scars.

[M. Bréqs]

OK, again, for the 100,000nth time How does attacking a sovereign nation, going against the general opinion of the entire planet, and generally making the Iraqi people go through a worse hell than Saddam did, make us safe??
We can talk all we want about the lack of freedom in Saddam's Iraq, but I'm dead sure the people themselves are even more afraid of the US military than they ever were of Saddam.
I think it does the opposite, and will for hundreds of years after, war, especially half baked aggressive war reeking of colonialism, leaves lasting scars.

OK, I see I edited my post while you were responding. Sorry 'bout that. Anyways, I don't necessarily support the Iraq war anymore. I did when I actually thought that they had WMDs, but now it seems like a poorly thought out endeavour. It distracted the military effort from Afghanistan, and as I stated above, we should be an example of democracy, not an imposer of democracy to other states.

I was responding because Meef Chaolin started trashing Israel. My posts above are not intended to justify the Iraq war, they're intended to justify US foreign policy vis a vis Israel.

As many here may know, I'm a 100% vocal zionist. However, I wish to be clear that I'm not a jew, I'm not an evangelical, I'm an agnostic who borders on the athiest. My reasons for siding with Israel are because I see the Israelis as my societal brothers.

[Machinesworking]

As stated above Machinesworking, there is no power, no civilization, no state, no union, no co-operative, no individual, no corporation that will act in the way you want them to. NOBODY WITH POWER ON THIS PLANET WILL EVER ACT JUSTLY FOR EVERYBODY. If you hinder America's strength by attacking the national morale, you're only opening the door for something much worse.

Right black and white, I'm a liberal hippy because I think my nation should act according to the principals we supposedly uphold. because I desire change I'm stressing the status quo.
You HAVE to disagree with your own government if you want change, period. We agree 100% with the government and it's policies then we get a fascist state, you KNOW that. Hitler rose to power through the political system because people put all their trust in their government. Not saying that GWB is Hitler, just that Hitler is almost ANY leader given total power.
Remember the german people were promised a better life. Conversely, the Russians were promised that as well by Stalin, and we know how those countries turned out.

What alternative do you have to American hegemony? Happy fun fantasy government? It's naive. I'm not a "with us or against us" (that's an oversimplification of my arguement), I just see the United States as the best possible global power given all the alternatives. It's not fair for everybody, it can never be. But the US is the least of all evils.

I consider the democratic systems of Europe in general to be in better shape than my own government, and though i would love living in europe, I do see that as a cop out, change always has to happen from within.

. The West has set an example for other civilizations to choose to follow or not. I think it's stupid to try to impose our system on others (eg. Iraq) but I believe that we must defend, with utmost vigour, our fellow citizens of the West (eg. Israel).

You put those two sentences together I didn't. That there is the beef of this, you know it was wrong, and still try to convince yourself that we are an example to them?? How the hell do you think we can work with the middle east if we continue to make blind judgments that make us look like aggressive assholes?? For us or against us simply doesn't work here.
FYI, I'm absolutely sure I would enjoy chatting with you in real life. I'm not so short sited as to think that adherence to my views are mandatory for a strength in character. Generally you refrain from personal attacks and I appreciate that, it's just internet chat you know?
There's nothing wrong with being a social darwinist, unless you use it to mistreat the poor.

[mikemc]

[It's been demonstrated throughout history that power abhors a vacuum. SOMEBODY MUST BE ON TOP. If there were no American domination of the globe's economy, then somebody else would be doing it. And I can tell you this; Yes, American Capitalism is unfair to some. However this planet would be a MUCH worse place if the globe were dominated by Chinese communists, modern slavery exemplified in an Indian Caste system, or (worst of all) an Islamic Theocratic Caliphate that forces my mom into a Burkah, denies my spouse medical treatment, and stones one of my friends to death for the heinous crime of being gay.

None of that explains the Iraq war. The USA as long as we have the highest level of technology, will never have to worry about an Islamic fundamentalist takeover, and insinuating that it's a possibility, is poor logic my friend.

yes, that is exactly what they want you to think

So I'll try to dumb it down as much as possible for popslut and any other shortsighted America haters; Be careful what you wish for people, things are pretty decent right now and you're asking for it to be flushed down the toilet.

I worry about people like you.

You've no need to be. I'm not worried about people like you. In fact, people like me make sure that people like you are free to worry about whatever you damn well please.

You're welcome.

This is interesting. A point is that we have to understand the multilevel trap that has been set by sitting looking at where we are and not where we want to and can be.

On either side of the issue are a type of 'absolutist'. One sort of absolutism results in the oppression and social stagnation that was Afghanistan under the Taliban. This is the current, ultimate destination for the middle east when the oil runs out, given the trend. The most scary part about this is that what the middle east needs to avoid that ultimate destination is a tolerant, just, democratic, balanced between east/west, reasonable, moderate and non-aggressive yet strong Iran that stays that way.

The other US-neoconservative manipulationist side results in the sort of 'might makes right' that allows one rich and powerful guy to shoot another less rich and less powerful guy in the face by accident and not have to really pay the typical consequences or face the typical legal scrutiny that someone else more average would. What the US needs is the complete disassembly of the intelligence-as-pro-policy PR mechanism that has been put in place, the eradication of the neoconservative manipulationist movement, and the disbanding of the Republican party, or at least the neutralization of it's worst bullies.

Both are a type of oppression, oppression by vicious cross-eyed zealots or hamhanded beetle browed rich bullies, neither of which I want, but also which are not 'morally equal': the first type will not permit or nurture the individual empowerment to change it, while the second type would like to stifle or manipulate that empowerment, but has to deal with it.

OK, again, for the 100,000nth time How does attacking a sovereign nation, going against the general opinion of the entire planet, and generally making the Iraqi people go through a worse hell than Saddam did, make us safe??
We can talk all we want about the lack of freedom in Saddam's Iraq, but I'm dead sure the people themselves are even more afraid of the US military than they ever were of Saddam.
I think it does the opposite, and will for hundreds of years after, war, especially half baked aggressive war reeking of colonialism, leaves lasting scars.

Heard a show on the radio today, a guy from Iraq was talking about the history of Saddam since the Ford administration. Basically, Saddam cut a deal with the Shah of Iran regarding some border region that he essentially ceded in return for some political help in Iraq, cooling the shi'ites. Later, after the revolution, he tried to take that region back, thinking Iran would not be organized enough to defend it, and the war bankrupted Iraq and his ethnic cleansing in attempted support of it didn't work. After that, he needed more revenue, economically and politically, so he started to eye Kuwait. He was not just a mass murderer, he was also really bad at being a militarist dictator.

It is scary, but what the middle east needs to avoid a lot of things is a tolerant, just, democratic, balanced between east/west, reasonable, moderate and strong yet non-aggressive Iran that stays that way.

[Machinesworking]

OK, again, for the 100,000nth time How does attacking a sovereign nation, going against the general opinion of the entire planet, and generally making the Iraqi people go through a worse hell than Saddam did, make us safe??
We can talk all we want about the lack of freedom in Saddam's Iraq, but I'm dead sure the people themselves are even more afraid of the US military than they ever were of Saddam.
I think it does the opposite, and will for hundreds of years after, war, especially half baked aggressive war reeking of colonialism, leaves lasting scars.

OK, I see I edited my post while you were responding. Sorry 'bout that. Anyways, I don't necessarily support the Iraq war anymore. I did when I actually thought that they had WMDs, but now it seems like a poorly thought out endeavour. It distracted the military effort from Afghanistan, and as I stated above, we should be an example of democracy, not an imposer of democracy to other states.

I was responding because Meef Chaolin started trashing Israel. My posts above are not intended to justify the Iraq war, they're intended to justify US foreign policy vis a vis Israel.

As many here may know, I'm a 100% vocal zionist. However, I wish to be clear that I'm not a jew, I'm not an evangelical, I'm an agnostic who borders on the athiest. My reasons for siding with Israel are because I see the Israelis as my societal brothers.

Playing hop scotch here. I agree with you on the above points. Israel, though I'm not a fan of basically non secular states, already exists, and therefore has a right to exist.
we should be a bastion of democracy, and I think we do need to practice in out foreign policy what we preach.
I wasn't at all against going into Afghanistan, though I'm not sure why we basically gave Bin Ladin advanced forwarning that we were going to attack?
I'm not at all for the Taliban, but you had to respect that they were put in power with Bin Ladin's help, and naturally couldn't righteously turn him over. If you've ever read the Art of War, then you know that the way outlined in that book to fight war was with the attitude that the enemy wasn't an animal, but a force of will to be overcome. Basically I'm tired of simplifying the enemy down to 'evil doer', it's more complex than that, and should be treated as such I believe.