OT... Saddam is executed. Right thing to do?

[Machinesworking]

It is scary, but what the middle east needs to avoid a lot of things is a tolerant, just, democratic, balanced between east/west, reasonable, moderate and strong yet non-aggressive Iran that stays that way.

Yeah, basically a post 911 Iran.

The guy before the current fundamentalist was exactly that guy you're talking about.

OK this is what pisses me off about US foreign policy, we threatened Iran after the Iraq takeover, and they elected a hard liner in response. we didn't try to talk the the previous president, who was a moderate, we threatened him. We are creating our enemies in the middle east, that to me, is a problem.

[M. Bréqs]

I consider the democratic systems of Europe in general to be in better shape than my own government, and though i would love living in europe, I do see that as a cop out, change always has to happen from within.

OK, good point there. I agree with you that change from within is better than fleeing a situation. That's one of the reasons I oppose Canada's revolving door immigration system, the moderates we want to moderate crazy states just pack up and come to Canada, delaying the problem... But that's another discussion for another time! However, European democracies (save Britain) are too selfish, too shortsighted and too scared to actually DO anything to help the world out. The world can burn around them, but if it doesn't affect l'homme francais or die deutscher mann, they won't budge. Remember, Bush is the only world leader so far to actually admit there is genocide in Darfur. Europeans are responsible for letting the balkans fall into ethnic cleansing before the US strongarmed them to act through NATO. Europeans ran the "peacekeeping" show in Rwanda, tying the hands of Romeo Dallaire (the senior Canadian officer there at the time of the genocide).

FYI, I'm absolutely sure I would enjoy chatting with you in real life. I'm not so short sited as to think that adherence to my views are mandatory for a strength in character. Generally you refrain from personal attacks and I appreciate that, it's just internet chat you know?
There's nothing wrong with being a social darwinist, unless you use it to mistreat the poor.

'ssall good. You sum up my thoughts on this matter well too amigo.

[M. Bréqs]

OK this is what pisses me off about US foreign policy, we threatened Iran after the Iraq takeover, and they elected a hard liner in response. we didn't try to talk the the previous president, who was a moderate, we threatened him. We are creating our enemies in the middle east, that to me, is a problem.

Yeah, admittedly it was a big fuck up to snub Iran in 2000 / 2001. However, the absolute WORST thing the US could do now is talk to Ahmadinejad... It would only validate a turn towards extremism. The West just has to wait out Mr. Crazy's term. I don't think the Iranians will keep him around, he's been neglecting Iranian domestc issues too much. I would hope that most Iranians aren't that stupid that they'll fall for "it's Israel's fault" for every domestic shortcoming... But I could be wrong.

[Machinesworking]

OK this is what pisses me off about US foreign policy, we threatened Iran after the Iraq takeover, and they elected a hard liner in response. we didn't try to talk the the previous president, who was a moderate, we threatened him. We are creating our enemies in the middle east, that to me, is a problem.

Yeah, admittedly it was a big fuck up to snub Iran in 2000 / 2001. However, the absolute WORST thing the US could do now is talk to Ahmadinejad... It would only validate a turn towards extremism. The West just has to wait out Mr. Crazy's term. I don't think the Iranians will keep him around, he's been neglecting Iranian domestc issues too much. I would hope that most Iranians aren't that stupid that they'll fall for "it's Israel's fault" for every domestic shortcoming... But I could be wrong.

We should publicly admit to failing to reason with the moderate guy before him, and let it be known that we would support even a moderate over the current fundamentalist, but really, I don't know how in hell we can repair relations with Iran regardless of who's in power? We have historically treated that country dishonorably.
One thing is certain, the more we look like Iran is next on the list of countries we preemptively strike, the more likely that they elect a fundamentalist. That is one reason I don't think it's valid to side with US hard line policy, when we left them alone, they made small advances forward, when we threatened, they responded with conservative fundamentalist votes.

[M. Bréqs]

That is one reason I don't think it's valid to side with US hard line policy, when we left them alone, they made small advances forward, when we threatened, they responded with conservative fundamentalist votes.

You seem to have a point there; but US policy vis a vis Iran also has impact on other states. Diplomatic "soft" power is just that. The West is already seen as weak and soft, mostly because of our own disunity. I think that maintaining fear and respect for US power (and the American will to exercise power) across the globe is more important than the control of any single state, even one as strategically critical as Iran.

[Machinesworking]

That is one reason I don't think it's valid to side with US hard line policy, when we left them alone, they made small advances forward, when we threatened, they responded with conservative fundamentalist votes.

You seem to have a point there; but US policy vis a vis Iran also has impact on other states. Diplomatic "soft" power is just that. The West is already seen as weak and soft, mostly because of our own disunity. I think that maintaining fear and respect for US power (and the American will to exercise power) across the globe is more important than the control of any single state, even one as strategically critical as Iran.

You know it's funny, because it's only recently dawned on me how ironic that viewpoint is. Not yours, but the one attributed to middle eastern countries etc. that the US is weak.... give me a break? we have been in a constant state of war since we began. The only war we "lost" was never even considered a war? Our track record so completely shows how silly that idea is it's not even worth taking seriously. We are a war like nation.
Really, look at me for example, the supposed 'liberal' and I'm saying it was stupid to warn the Afghan government that we were going to attack. We should have just stormed in and took over without waiting as long as we did. Fuck protocol! Bin Ladin got away, period.
Though I admit it probably was more likely they thought they had his coordinates when they did in fact attack.

[Meef Chaloin]

how does an israeli living in the middle east help your jewish 'brother' living down the road?

[muscleandhate]

M. Bréqs, try reading What Uncle Sam Really Wants by Noam Chomsky. I'd love to hear what you have to say about that.

[forgie]

Wow. These threads are always interesting for insight into your fellow Ableton user.

M Breqs: you claim to know so much about global politics yet you also say you believe that Iraq had WMDs pre-invasion. Does not compute!?

[sidownes]

btw, who on these boards lives in Iraq?

About 300 thousand fewer Iraqis live in Iraq now than they did before the US and UK went there.

[b0unce]

btw, who on these boards doesnt hail from an imperialist nation ? or who comes from a nation which knows what it is to be occupied by external forces ?

<---raises hand


sad fact is, most of the people blowing shit here dont have a fwacking clue - yet they seem so certain of their opinions & ideas of how muslims must feel and what they must be thinking in terms of response


and for any pedants out there who want to start talking about two and three thousand years ago etc: eat a dick.

[M. Bréqs]

M Breqs: you claim to know so much about global politics yet you also say you believe that Iraq had WMDs pre-invasion. Does not compute!?

Certainly does compute. Saddam used 'em in the past, and was interfering with Hans Blix's investigations / inspections. The United States government claimed to have rock solid evidence gathered from classified sources. It's a perfectly logical conclusion to draw. In retrospect, Saddam was actually cooperating, but making airs as if he had something to hide... Probably to keep his own people in line and to deter attack. The US, and I, fell into his well crafted deception plan. The fact that Chalabi and others had interest in manipulating the US doesn't help either, but you can see how one doesn't have to be stupid to fall for a well crafted deception.

M. Bréqs, try reading What Uncle Sam Really Wants by Noam Chomsky. I'd love to hear what you have to say about that.

OK, I'll check it out. However, in exchange I'll ask you to read America Alone, by Mark Steyn. I'll be willing to discuss the matter with you via pm if you want.

how does an israeli living in the middle east help your jewish 'brother' living down the road?

The Israeli living in the middle east IS my brother; this includes Israeli muslims and christians (and the rare athiest) so long as they respect western values (democracy, liberty, pluralism). Civilizationally speaking, we both adhere to liberal democratic principles, which were founded in the fusion of Greek polis and the Judeo-Christian moral tradition. The Islamist Jihadists want to eradicate my way of life and make me a Dhimmi. The Israelis are the first line of defence for my entire society. It is in my interest to ensure that they are well funded, well armed, and have the strength of morale necessary to fight fiercely, as they fight in my interest.

[ethios4]

It's been demonstrated throughout history that power abhors a vacuum. SOMEBODY MUST BE ON TOP. If there were no American domination of the globe's economy, then somebody else would be doing it. And I can tell you this; Yes, American Capitalism is unfair to some. However this planet would be a MUCH worse place if the globe were dominated by Chinese communists, modern slavery exemplified in an Indian Caste system, or (worst of all) an Islamic Theocratic Caliphate that forces my mom into a Burkah, denies my spouse medical treatment, and stones one of my friends to death for the heinous crime of being gay.

I tend to agree with you on this, BUT I strongly disagree with many of the policies that the Bushes execute. The American system may be the best thing going right now, but that does not mean it is impervious to decay from the inside, and that is what I feel is going on. I do not disgree with the Bushes because I disagree with the American system, but because I feel what they are doing is detrimental to America and the world. It is because I believe in America's unique position in the world, and I believe in the dream and ideal of America that I strongly disagree with the course of action Bush has taken. The war in Iraq was not wrong because there were no WMDs....the war in Iraq was wrong because it was not the absolute last resort. I was strongly against the war before it began, not because I didn't believe there were WMDs, but because just looking at it it was just plainly wrong. WAR - not a Sunday drive.

I believe the American system is the best thing going right now, but that does not mean its perfect and it is surely subject to fall. To me, it is idiots like Bush that are the more immediate danger to this country. 9/11 was an incredible opportunity for the United States, and the world.....sadly, we had the wrong person in place at the time. We had an opportunity as great as the chance to end slavery, the triumph of women's suffrage, the civil rights movement, the founding of this democracy...a chance to prove to the world that the American system truly is better than violent oppression, racist warfare, rigid class stratification, and corruption by power. What has the actual American reaction to 9/11 proven?

The United States government claimed to have rock solid evidence gathered from classified sources. It's a perfectly logical conclusion to draw. In retrospect, Saddam was actually cooperating, but making airs as if he had something to hide... Probably to keep his own people in line and to deter attack. The US, and I, fell into his well crafted deception plan.

Oh come on now.....

[Machinesworking]

The United States government claimed to have rock solid evidence gathered from classified sources. It's a perfectly logical conclusion to draw. In retrospect, Saddam was actually cooperating, but making airs as if he had something to hide... Probably to keep his own people in line and to deter attack. The US, and I, fell into his well crafted deception plan.

Oh come on now.....

Yeah, that's pushing it. There was a general consensus world wide, that he did not have any WMD's, and later it was revealed that they didn't have any real evidence at all. We had people here in the states calling for the outing of the UN because they did not agree Saddam had WMDs.
You fell into GWB and crews well crafted deception plan. The evidence is in the results. GWB and crew are doing fine, hell Condaleeza has an OIL TANKER bearing her namesake. We are militarily in control of Iraq, and Saddam is dead.
Who's plan did you say it was?
According to employees there GWB and crew pestered the CIA into saying that it was of course possible that he had WMD hidden, after telling representatives over and over again that all their sources pointed to them dismantling them as part of the surrender. This is common knowledge. Jesus dude, it's not Mother Jones reporting this!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/ ... 7749.shtml

[M. Bréqs]

You fell into GWB and crews well crafted deception plan.

Possibly, but hindsight is 20/20. There's a LOT of people (not just Americans) who believed the Iraqi WMD thing back in 2003; I'm by no means alone.

Further, I think that it was 50% wishful thinking and 50% impatience that resulted in the failure regarding the false WMD assessments. I usually don't attribute to conspiracy that which can be attributed to incompetence.