OT: Viva Hugo Chavez

jamester · Post by **jamester** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:56 am

Heh, I can only speak for myself, but I am not a conservative and certainly not a Bush supporter! My thoughts are purely on an ecenomics basis; Chavez gets his wealth from oil profits, and while he can continue to keep his country wrapped in an economic blanket for now, he is still subjected to the trends and forces of the global industry market. So one can only undercut for so long, before the losses catch up to you. It's an economic thing, not a political thing.

As for privatization, it usually sucks...just like when our government runs things. There is no better or "right" way, because both will end up failing (just in different ways). The government will bumble and botch, the corporates will thieve and steal, and continually charge more while providing less and less. In the end, either will screw you.

UnitedElectric · Post by **UnitedElectric** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:50 am

Machinesworking wrote:

Ok you're being silly, we haven't been denied anything, it's an entire country, the policies are clear, if you just recently decided to pay attention, and obviously have already made up your mind, then great, that's your opinion, but you voice it with propaganda.
Socialism is working just fine in Sweden, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and Norway among others. You cite extremist cases where they never got out of military rule.

Many of us noticed that Chavez was a tyrant the moment he took the throne, but many have considered him the ascendant Sun-God on account of his hatred for America. However, the puff piece that started this thread is a steamy, wafting example of the misinformation that we have been subjected to. I also fail to see where my opinion is propganda. Go ahead and disprove what I have said rather than dismiss it with a wave of your hand.

Sweden, the Netherlands and Switzerland and Company sport some of the most hyper-capitalist financial systems on the planet, aside from their opressive tax structures. Sure, they mix in a healthy dose of Euro-nanny-state goodness to keep the natives quiet, but one peak at thier banking and currency fundamentals dispells that myth. And you are only half-correct that Orwell wrote 1984 about England. It was a warning that England not become like Russia. By the way, I like his stuff too:

http://orwell.ru/library/articles/pacif ... ish/e_patw

Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me’. The idea that you can somehow remain aloof from and superior to the struggle, while living on food which British sailors have to risk their lives to bring you, is a bourgeois illusion bred of money and security.

Also, I dare you to go to downtown Miami with a bullhorn and declare on the streets that Castro "really didn't turn out that bad considering"...

Jeroen · Post by **Jeroen** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:20 am

Being from Holland I have to write something. The dutch economy is based on capitalism. It is not a socialist state. It has some social policies, that's all.

I cannot see Chavez taking care of his people by giving away oil away for cheap to the US to buy political influence. The economic status is dreadful and the only reason why he still survives is the high oil price. He is wasting his time fighting the devil instead of taking care of his people.

J

M. Bréqs · Post by **M. Bréqs** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:43 pm

Jeroen wrote:I cannot see Chavez taking care of his people by giving away oil away for cheap to the US to buy political influence. The economic status is dreadful and the only reason why he still survives is the high oil price. He is wasting his time fighting the devil instead of taking care of his people.

J

+1.

jb61264 · Post by **jb61264** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:41 pm

Chavez needs to be checked in to the freaking psych ward! F'ing mental goon

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:47 pm

UnitedElectric wrote:Many of us noticed that Chavez was a tyrant the moment he took the throne, but many have considered him the ascendant Sun-God on account of his hatred for America. However, the puff piece that started this thread is a steamy, wafting example of the misinformation that we have been subjected to. I also fail to see where my opinion is propganda. Go ahead and disprove what I have said rather than dismiss it with a wave of your hand.

Here's a clue, every opinion you have is backed up by adjectives. We don't have to read any facts from you to understand they you believe that Chavez is a tyrant etc. and you haven't really talked about policies just stated opinion as fact. I don't call Bush a tyrant, simply because it's propaganda, whether or not his actions prove him a tyrant is up to history books, and it's easy to see IMO that he'll land right near Grant with his innovative and failed plan of preemptively striking countries based on little or no evidence. Grant is considered a bit of a tyrant himself with his Manifest Destiny policy etc.
We don't know yet whether or not Chavez becomes a tryant or not. So far, he's been a socialist, and his past treatment of political enemies certainly were not tyrannical, it's possible that it's starting to change for the worse, but I haven't seen any indication that it is tyrannical. I don't mind being proven wrong with this, but really, all I've read are blanket statements from the right, with little or no thinking involved.

UnitedElectric wrote:Also, I dare you to go to downtown Miami with a bullhorn and declare on the streets that Castro "really didn't turn out that bad considering"...

Right, stand in the center of a population of "political prisoners" who found freedom in the USA, that turned out to be casino owners and common criminals... sorry, but it's hard to respect the political opinion of a group of people with a history like that...... It's like asking the scottish born Ulster group what they think of a united Ireland.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:01 pm

Jeroen wrote:Being from Holland I have to write something. The dutch economy is based on capitalism. It is not a socialist state. It has some social policies, that's all.

The economy is based on a combination, like almost all are. You have socialized health care, energy, and employment benefits, as well I bet as incentives for research etc.
Sure the USA has some of that, but not near what you guys have, we are almost completely a capitalism, and the knee jerk reaction is to paint all socialist ideas as bad, even though the standard of living is higher in Holland. It's definitely not because Americans don't work hard enough etc. we over work here.

I cannot see Chavez taking care of his people by giving away oil away for cheap to the US to buy political influence. The economic status is dreadful and the only reason why he still survives is the high oil price. He is wasting his time fighting the devil instead of taking care of his people.

J

I agree somewhat, but I can't think that it was a bad thing that a US senator asked a bunch of oil companies to help out with getting disadvantaged people cheap oil, and Venezuela stepped up. who cares where it came from, it helped some old people stay warm.

I'm also not really sure if we can judge the oil price fixing. Also, isn't that the way you win in these situations? sell oil for cheaper, set up the contracts, then when everybody else lowers to your price, it's less of a convenience for a buyer to switch wholesalers.

dango · Post by **dango** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:10 pm

jb61264 wrote:Chavez needs to be checked in to the freaking psych ward! F'ing mental goon

yeah, put him in the cell between bush and cheney, and right next to kim jung.

with all the crazy leaders nowadays i will take chavez over the lot of them, our leaders in the united states are the craziest of the bunch right now. fuckin insane. bring on obama. please

Jeroen · Post by **Jeroen** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:15 am

I agree somewhat, but I can't think that it was a bad thing that a US senator asked a bunch of oil companies to help out with getting disadvantaged people cheap oil, and Venezuela stepped up. who cares where it came from, it helped some old people stay warm.

That's good as long as you understand that this is at the expense of the poor people in Venezuela.

fishermusic · Post by **fishermusic** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:28 am

Poverty in Venezuela rose from 43 percent to 54 percent of the population during Chavez's first four years in office. And extreme poverty -- the percentage of the population that lives on less than $1 a day -- grew from 17 percent to 25 percent during the same period.

And his ass and ego get bigger every year.

His own people will "Mussolini" this prick before too long.

UnitedElectric · Post by **UnitedElectric** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:56 am

Machinesworking wrote:

Right, stand in the center of a population of "political prisoners" who found freedom in the USA, that turned out to be casino owners and common criminals... sorry, but it's hard to respect the political opinion of a group of people with a history like that......

Good form (golf clap)... Not bigoted against Cubans at all. Like I said, you'd get your ass beat in Miami.
Also:

you haven't really talked about policies just stated opinion as fact.

And if you read my posts, links and all, you'll find plenty of facts and admittedly lots of adjectives. Nestled amongst the many facts:

Hugo Chávez has threatened to jail grocery store owners and nationalize their businesses if they violate the country’s expanding price controls.

That is bloody TYRANNY.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:26 am

UnitedElectric wrote:Machinesworking wrote:
Right, stand in the center of a population of "political prisoners" who found freedom in the USA, that turned out to be casino owners and common criminals... sorry, but it's hard to respect the political opinion of a group of people with a history like that......
Good form (golf clap)... Not bigoted against Cubans at all. Like I said, you'd get your ass beat in Miami.

Right, I have no problems with cubans, but talking to political refugees here about Castro is like talking to the Ulster groups about the simple fact that they largely came from poor scots who were given property and businesses that were stolen from the irish, the sympathy is one sided. The cubans here don't care about mafia investment in the casinos in Cuba or US attempts to assassinate Castro etc. They lost, we took their side, our policies in Cuba definitely brought Castro in in the first place, but not many cuban people in the USA would admit that. It's a silly and retarded bit of blather on your part to say that I would be beaten for my beliefs in miami etc. You sound like the kind of guy who spout things like "IF yoo dont lak merica, jes get the feck oot!"

Serious dude, get a grip. most retarded part is you're talking to a guy who's missing teeth because of going at it with racist skinheads..... but yeah, if I don't care for the political policies of a small part of an ethnic group, and it's clear that a lot of that ethnic group had a vested interest in the government in power before, then I'm the bigot......

Hugo Chávez has threatened to jail grocery store owners and nationalize their businesses if they violate the country’s expanding price controls.
That is bloody TYRANNY.

I agree, but really it's more like socialism, so is forcing striking airline workers back to work with threats of jailing them.... like Reagan did.
I'm not saying Chavez is great etc. but he sure isn't what you are making him out to be.