My unbiased thoughts on Logic vs Live
You can do all the ass kissing to '74 as you'd like, but lately they are known for the Pluggo series of plug-ins more than Max. And anybody who's even demo'd Pluggo can tell you that the promise is bigger than the delivery.
Max/MSP have been essentially defunct for quit a while, at least that I'm aware of being of the era of hypercard stacks. Claiming that Reactor and even Live would not be possible without, is a bit of an overstatement. Someone ma have used MAX/MSP experiment with a concept but hard coding was required to actually build an application.
They are welcome to update the Max/MSP environment to be… ahem, useable anytime. I kind of doubt '74 is going to hand Ableton the reigns and let them include their overpriced and outdated code into Live. I expect some plug-ins, that you'll probably have to pay extra for. Fell free to surprise me.
Flame Suite On!
Max/MSP have been essentially defunct for quit a while, at least that I'm aware of being of the era of hypercard stacks. Claiming that Reactor and even Live would not be possible without, is a bit of an overstatement. Someone ma have used MAX/MSP experiment with a concept but hard coding was required to actually build an application.
They are welcome to update the Max/MSP environment to be… ahem, useable anytime. I kind of doubt '74 is going to hand Ableton the reigns and let them include their overpriced and outdated code into Live. I expect some plug-ins, that you'll probably have to pay extra for. Fell free to surprise me.
Flame Suite On!
Lots of gear. 
Im never quite sure why people get hung up about Live vs DAWx... its allmost as futile as the Reason vs DAw discussions
The are different anaimals - Certainly Live is very DAW like, but the fact that alot of us use both Live and another DAW daily says one of both of two things -
1. Live has a very unique set of functions that several of us cant live without now we have it, if certainly offers a very inspriing way of working for me.
2. Live as a serious DAW has some really significant weakness that mean alot of us feel the need to invest in another better conventional DAW as well.
If I stand back and take an objective view of what Live provides in the box compared to other major DAWs (Cubase 4, Logic 8, Sonar 7) then TBH its expensive and rather weak when compared as DAW.
As a workflow and Live production tool - then its strong - does that justify the price? I dont know??? I have spent a hell of alot more on bits here that do far less.
I still think sampler and operator are a complete rip off however. I dont care really as I dont like either enough to buy them at any price. I dont even know if I would use them if they were free in the box - maybe I would find a use for sampler, but TBH the main thing I would want to use it for simpler actually does the job *better* - huh?. My reaction would probably I wish they had justified the price with something else instead...
The are different anaimals - Certainly Live is very DAW like, but the fact that alot of us use both Live and another DAW daily says one of both of two things -
1. Live has a very unique set of functions that several of us cant live without now we have it, if certainly offers a very inspriing way of working for me.
2. Live as a serious DAW has some really significant weakness that mean alot of us feel the need to invest in another better conventional DAW as well.
If I stand back and take an objective view of what Live provides in the box compared to other major DAWs (Cubase 4, Logic 8, Sonar 7) then TBH its expensive and rather weak when compared as DAW.
As a workflow and Live production tool - then its strong - does that justify the price? I dont know??? I have spent a hell of alot more on bits here that do far less.
I still think sampler and operator are a complete rip off however. I dont care really as I dont like either enough to buy them at any price. I dont even know if I would use them if they were free in the box - maybe I would find a use for sampler, but TBH the main thing I would want to use it for simpler actually does the job *better* - huh?. My reaction would probably I wish they had justified the price with something else instead...
Nothing to see here - move along!
Well, let's concentrate on the more important question then, not how Live does VS other DAWs, but how it interact/integrates with other DAWs.
Does Logic 8 complement Live well and how does it complement Live? How is the workflow? Would other DAWs complement it better (like Cubase)? Is it easy to export audio or maybe even Midi from Live into one of those other DAWs?
I am still testing Live (actually I'm still busy getting into my NI Komplete plus Kore package first), but at the moment it seems as if buying Live and then complementing it with a DAW is the way to go even though it means working in two enviroments. Like using Live for composition and live use and the other DAW for mixing (and partly recording in conjunction with Live, especially using the new comping feature of Logic for instance).
One thing I am really curious about is if Logic's Mainstage does compete with Live for being a better live enviroment than Live is?!
Does Logic 8 complement Live well and how does it complement Live? How is the workflow? Would other DAWs complement it better (like Cubase)? Is it easy to export audio or maybe even Midi from Live into one of those other DAWs?
I am still testing Live (actually I'm still busy getting into my NI Komplete plus Kore package first), but at the moment it seems as if buying Live and then complementing it with a DAW is the way to go even though it means working in two enviroments. Like using Live for composition and live use and the other DAW for mixing (and partly recording in conjunction with Live, especially using the new comping feature of Logic for instance).
One thing I am really curious about is if Logic's Mainstage does compete with Live for being a better live enviroment than Live is?!
coogs - you're just a hater and trolling on me, chill out man.
many DAW and plug in ideas started as max/msp ideas. if you know max/msp you can do anything any DAW or Reaktor-esque software can do, ANYTHING.
overpriced, outdated code?? right... 800 objects to use to do whatever you want. how in the world is it outdated? again, a plug-in reference, you're just hating.
coogs - you're not saying anything of substance, I can't take you seriously. call me a fanboy or whatever but you're hating on something that you don't understand and trolling on me at the same time. we could go back and forth but I'm not picking up that you have a grip on what it's all about. your criticisms are hollow.
mic-minimal - I've gone on and on about it, since you're being cheeky about it...
max/msp is a graphical language, boxes with inputs and outputs that perform a function. link a box that says "3" to one that says "+ 1" to a third box and it will read "4".
with OSC and Live I could take a box that reads ANY parameter in Live and play with it in max (the midi part of max/msp). with msp (the audio part of max/msp) I can take audio to and from Live by making new object boxes.
all that can lead to completely new user interfaces.
about a month ago I released a max patch that would let users do hands free recording with 1 stomp box for any number of tracks. in that patch I had to ask users to input the quantize setting, the bpm, number of tracks they want, etc. if Live had OSC I could just read all that from Live and make it all work smoother. I could even record into max then send the clip to Live or... there's a thousand ways to do any given action in max/msp.
hypothetically speaking...
imagine a max object called 'track' when you give that object the name of a track in Live it can be used to control that track.
the first inlet/input to 'track' could be to select the track so it gets highlighted and you see the FX.
the second inlet could be to launch a clip in that track, sent it a '4' and it launches or shows clip 4 in that track.
an output for the 'track' object could be the midi data for midi or audio for an audio track.
with msp you could take audio inputs from multiple places and make things like sidechaining compressors, mixers, vocoders, whatever.
use your imagination a bit and there's thousands of things you could do with Live and max/msp.
then again you can just sit back and download what users create (machinate I'm looking at you!) just like the amazing racks users put out, max/msp creations can let users create features they wished Live had or even workarounds for broken things.
so you can say you don't want to do all that, it's too complicated. Live got complicated with racks, what's the biggest rack you've ever made?
I really doubt Ableton will require users to run a program alongside Live, they'll keep it simple in their own German engineering way. I can imagine another view for playing with max objects with the max engine built into the Live code.
I'm really excited for the possibilities but there are people who've written it off and are the loudest in talking about it. I don't care to debate the virtues of it because something is coming, I want it and no amount of haterade from some random users is going to stop it. it's coming whether you like it or not and if you upgrade you will like and use stuff that users come up with.
I'm also titilated by the notion of two companies with extremely unusual, 'outside the box', unique products merging their ideas.
blah blah blah...
C74 is not just Pluggo.MR Coogs wrote:You can do all the ass kissing to '74 as you'd like, but lately they are known for the Pluggo series of plug-ins more than Max. And anybody who's even demo'd Pluggo can tell you that the promise is bigger than the delivery.
they've been defunct? you've got a weird view of the world, they just released a new version, changed offices, started a collaboration with Ableton and the users group is quite active. I'm taking a class in max/msp at a local shop and I'm not the only student.Max/MSP have been essentially defunct for quit a while, at least that I'm aware of being of the era of hypercard stacks. Claiming that Reactor and even Live would not be possible without, is a bit of an overstatement. Someone ma have used MAX/MSP experiment with a concept but hard coding was required to actually build an application.
many DAW and plug in ideas started as max/msp ideas. if you know max/msp you can do anything any DAW or Reaktor-esque software can do, ANYTHING.
not usable? you're really just pulling stuff out of your ass. I've been using it all weekend and I use it with my monome 40h all the time. look at the DIY crowd, max/msp is used a lot.They are welcome to update the Max/MSP environment to be… ahem, useable anytime.
hand them the reigns?? all it takes is OSC implementation in Live, you don't know what you're talking about.I kind of doubt '74 is going to hand Ableton the reigns and let them include their overpriced and outdated code into Live. I expect some plug-ins, that you'll probably have to pay extra for. Fell free to surprise me.
overpriced, outdated code?? right... 800 objects to use to do whatever you want. how in the world is it outdated? again, a plug-in reference, you're just hating.
flame suite? was that a mozart series of compositions?? you're writing with the intent of being a dick, nice guy.Flame Suite On!
coogs - you're not saying anything of substance, I can't take you seriously. call me a fanboy or whatever but you're hating on something that you don't understand and trolling on me at the same time. we could go back and forth but I'm not picking up that you have a grip on what it's all about. your criticisms are hollow.
mic-minimal - I've gone on and on about it, since you're being cheeky about it...
max/msp is a graphical language, boxes with inputs and outputs that perform a function. link a box that says "3" to one that says "+ 1" to a third box and it will read "4".
with OSC and Live I could take a box that reads ANY parameter in Live and play with it in max (the midi part of max/msp). with msp (the audio part of max/msp) I can take audio to and from Live by making new object boxes.
all that can lead to completely new user interfaces.
about a month ago I released a max patch that would let users do hands free recording with 1 stomp box for any number of tracks. in that patch I had to ask users to input the quantize setting, the bpm, number of tracks they want, etc. if Live had OSC I could just read all that from Live and make it all work smoother. I could even record into max then send the clip to Live or... there's a thousand ways to do any given action in max/msp.
hypothetically speaking...
imagine a max object called 'track' when you give that object the name of a track in Live it can be used to control that track.
the first inlet/input to 'track' could be to select the track so it gets highlighted and you see the FX.
the second inlet could be to launch a clip in that track, sent it a '4' and it launches or shows clip 4 in that track.
an output for the 'track' object could be the midi data for midi or audio for an audio track.
with msp you could take audio inputs from multiple places and make things like sidechaining compressors, mixers, vocoders, whatever.
use your imagination a bit and there's thousands of things you could do with Live and max/msp.
then again you can just sit back and download what users create (machinate I'm looking at you!) just like the amazing racks users put out, max/msp creations can let users create features they wished Live had or even workarounds for broken things.
so you can say you don't want to do all that, it's too complicated. Live got complicated with racks, what's the biggest rack you've ever made?
I really doubt Ableton will require users to run a program alongside Live, they'll keep it simple in their own German engineering way. I can imagine another view for playing with max objects with the max engine built into the Live code.
I'm really excited for the possibilities but there are people who've written it off and are the loudest in talking about it. I don't care to debate the virtues of it because something is coming, I want it and no amount of haterade from some random users is going to stop it. it's coming whether you like it or not and if you upgrade you will like and use stuff that users come up with.
I'm also titilated by the notion of two companies with extremely unusual, 'outside the box', unique products merging their ideas.
blah blah blah...
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz
IF you guys are going bicker, take it to another thread please. You're making my unbiased thread way too biased 
tarekith
https://tarekith.com
https://tarekith.com
no deal coogs, you're selling C74 short. it's a critique like telling people you don't use Live because you don't do loop based music. that's cool though, I'm not out to change anyone's mind. I do definitely pick up that you know gear and are probably a DAW user with some chops, I think you evaluated C74 as not for you and put it down.
sorry Tarekith, does it have to be an unbiased Logic thread? may I discuss my unbiased opinions on Democratic Presidential candidates?
sorry Tarekith, does it have to be an unbiased Logic thread? may I discuss my unbiased opinions on Democratic Presidential candidates?
Last edited by Tone Deft on Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz
Definitely man, I was thinking we could turn it into a biased debate on what exactly makes things unbiased even
tarekith
https://tarekith.com
https://tarekith.com
preach on, tone deft (well, except for the bill o'reilly thing).
bottom line is - its just ig'nant to call cycling74 a lame plugin company. . anyone who is remotely interested in electronic music has to give them props.
i would go so far as to say anyone who is serious about electronic music should get familiar with an object based language like max/msp or pure data.. if you look at all the progressive heavyweights - Autechre, Fennesz, Matmos, whoever - they have all used it, and are mostly still using it in studio and live applications.
i do agree that maxmsp is very far from a DAW or consumer type product, takes a while to learn - (its actual programming!) and its not used that often in mainstreamish pop music, which might be why some people arent interested in it - and thats fine - but give it its due respect.
bottom line is - its just ig'nant to call cycling74 a lame plugin company. . anyone who is remotely interested in electronic music has to give them props.
i would go so far as to say anyone who is serious about electronic music should get familiar with an object based language like max/msp or pure data.. if you look at all the progressive heavyweights - Autechre, Fennesz, Matmos, whoever - they have all used it, and are mostly still using it in studio and live applications.
i do agree that maxmsp is very far from a DAW or consumer type product, takes a while to learn - (its actual programming!) and its not used that often in mainstreamish pop music, which might be why some people arent interested in it - and thats fine - but give it its due respect.
yeah im curious to see what happens. . it funny - i think ableton has become the new maxmsp in a way - lazy users (like myself) can get some pretty complex processing / synthesis done without any programming - but ive had hardcore programmers tell me that maxmsp is commercial and we should all be writing C++, so i guess its all relative.
i think the collaboration can only be a good thing, hopefully open up the program more and allow for smaller building blocks for creating synths or proccesing.. i guess only time will tell.
i took a workshop on pd (pure data) recently and was impressed by it - its m.puckets new project, an open source version of max, which growing really fast. i can highly recommend it. . and if i ever get confined to a hospital bed for a couple weeks ill have the patience to finally learn it for real:)
i think the collaboration can only be a good thing, hopefully open up the program more and allow for smaller building blocks for creating synths or proccesing.. i guess only time will tell.
i took a workshop on pd (pure data) recently and was impressed by it - its m.puckets new project, an open source version of max, which growing really fast. i can highly recommend it. . and if i ever get confined to a hospital bed for a couple weeks ill have the patience to finally learn it for real:)
I would like to see live focus on being a "live" instrument more as well. At some point most people who don't already have digital performer, logic, pro tools... will buy a dedicated DAW package for some of the more advanced features, or compatibility with industry standards, or... or they will decide that they can do what they want with what they have, which is fine. but asking live to keep up with logic as a DAW as well as being a great "live" tool and dj tool is, imo, spreading their resources too thin. there are already a lot of great DAW titles out there (for mac and pc.) I am not a dj but it looks like there are some good programs for djing already too.
so if anyone who works on live is reading this, that is one more request for the focus to remain on being a wonderful live instrument.
as for max/msp it is incredibly useable. I use it often.
a new version is in the works, which is supposed to be their biggest update yet, and among other things include a new look. although some of us like the way it looks now. and really love max/msp and live for not trying to look like hardware.
so if anyone who works on live is reading this, that is one more request for the focus to remain on being a wonderful live instrument.
as for max/msp it is incredibly useable. I use it often.
a new version is in the works, which is supposed to be their biggest update yet, and among other things include a new look. although some of us like the way it looks now. and really love max/msp and live for not trying to look like hardware.
more on logic vs live
You really should try both Logic 8 and Live 6 for awhile, and decide which one adapts to your own way of doing things. For me, I found Live to be very cumbersome when trying to do basic songwriting (recording mainly acoustic/audio tracks, then supplementing with midi. There were timing issues, lost samples, and lack of bundled instruments forcing having to buy suplemental stuff (like a decent sampler, drum software, sample editor). On the good side, it always seemed to me that Live would be great for DJs and playing with loops and processing samples on the fly, or for doing electronic music. But for basic audio recording and mixdown, I was always running into frustrating problems, or pulling out the manual.
Now that I have purchased and experimented with Logic 8 (which is a much better app than Logic 7, in my opinion), I find that it fits my method of writing and recording. Most things seem to be where I would expect them to be, and I am able to use it efficiently. It sounds fantastic. I really like and appreciate the quality of the integrated sampler, synths, drum machine, and plug-ins. It is now my preferred DAW. That doesn't mean it is the best for everyone, its just the best for me.
Someone made the analogy of buying a car. You can't waste time saying that one kind of car sucks, while the one you enjoy is ultimate. Just try numerous ones, and then settle in with the one that is right for you. Same for religions, politics, partner, friends, foods, etc. If you can, try before you buy. Or if you are frequently frustrated and disappointed and wondering if there might be something better out there, perhaps it is time to explore other options.
Now that I have purchased and experimented with Logic 8 (which is a much better app than Logic 7, in my opinion), I find that it fits my method of writing and recording. Most things seem to be where I would expect them to be, and I am able to use it efficiently. It sounds fantastic. I really like and appreciate the quality of the integrated sampler, synths, drum machine, and plug-ins. It is now my preferred DAW. That doesn't mean it is the best for everyone, its just the best for me.
Someone made the analogy of buying a car. You can't waste time saying that one kind of car sucks, while the one you enjoy is ultimate. Just try numerous ones, and then settle in with the one that is right for you. Same for religions, politics, partner, friends, foods, etc. If you can, try before you buy. Or if you are frequently frustrated and disappointed and wondering if there might be something better out there, perhaps it is time to explore other options.