my rant about timbaland

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
leisuremuffin
Posts: 4721
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:45 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Post by leisuremuffin » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:13 pm

I said i wouldn't respond, but you're begging for it.

Why i called you a moron:

Nod wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote:clip isn't of a timbaland production.
As I said I'm looking for clips of him actually playing something as in the above - that may not seem relevant to you - but it is to me. Doesn't matter what record or who's.
not relevant. There are many great and respected electronic musicians that you cannot find a clip of them doing anything. As to what he's doing in this clip, giving theory advice to Kanye, what do you want? It's not a clip of him making a track, and such a clip does not exist. So?
Nod wrote: Odd then that many of the pioneers, and well known artists, back in the day could actually play their (electronic) equipment in real time mostly to a virtuoso level...what would you say has been lost in the meantime?



This is my main reason for calling you an idiot. That is simply not true. It was not possible to create a piece of electronic music in real time "back in the day."

Nod wrote: No one's claimed that I'm "one of the greatest electronic musicians of our time" hence there's no need - so chill out and find me a clip of the cat playing something hot, to make your point, and I'll not say another word about him.
No, but the OP claims "he doesnt have an ounce of talent in him.have you heard the cheezy sounds and beats he makes.im sure everyone on this forum could come up with one his beats in five minutes." Not true. and if it were, where are the results?



So now what? you're just going to spew some complete bullshit, so i would have been better off leaving it at the insult you deserved.


.lm.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

rasputin
Posts: 645
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:16 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA
Contact:

Post by rasputin » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:15 pm

A bunch of people in this thread are all arguing at cross purposes because they're not DEFINING WHAT THEY MEAN. Do you call a guy who's primarily a producer a "musician"? They're overlapping but non-identical skill sets.

Saying "you couldn't come up with a track like that" is moot. Success is in the public's perception. Most of these people are 90% scenesters and 10% artists. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't consider "art" the same as "being in the scene."

Andy Warhol is a good model to think about this, really. Even though I personally think he had talent and unusual vision, he was basically the center of the New York new art scene in his prime and that's why he was famous.

His pieces can sell in the $10 of millions nowadays, not because it's great art but because it's Andy Warhol art. To a degree, that's also why Basquiats have sold for so much.

Very few musicians, composers, or producers have produced timeless works thinking "damn! this track is gonna live FOREVER!". It depends probably far more on the zeitgeist, luck, and promotion as it does on how expertly crafted a piece is...

ScottFree
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Post by ScottFree » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:38 pm

Wow.

Timbaland is a legend. He has made more certified club bangers than anyone on the planet in the last ten or eleven years.

He has an instantly recognizable sound - which is hard to say for most electronic producers.

His sound has literally made stars out of unknown artists - Missy, Aaliyah, Ginuwine.

His sound has also catapulted existing stars into the stratosphere - Timberlake, Nelly Furtado, Jay-Z, etc.

Oh my god I can't believe yall are hating on my man like that.

Tone Deft
Posts: 23755
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:00 pm

ScottFree wrote:Oh my god I can't believe yall are hating on my man like that.
there is absolutely no topic in existence that this forum will not piss and moan about.

who's your favorite band? they suck balls.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, guitars, JX305, Nova
soundcloud.com/tone-deft

Nod
Posts: 781
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:18 pm

Post by Nod » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:47 pm

@Rasputin - good call. However...
leisuremuffin wrote:I said i wouldn't respond, but you're begging for it. Why i called you a moron:
You could've just retracted that rather than poorly rewording it but, anyway, so if you've still no proof what are you doing putting an unverified recent example up on some kind of pedestal? Sales and popularity?
As to what he's doing in this clip, giving theory advice to Kanye, what do you want? It's not a clip of him making a track, and such a clip does not exist. So?
So, essentially, you have no proof whatsoever, of your own belief, in your idols involvement in anything - I posted a link of him looking like a cack handed knob and you casually deny it's relevance? He can seemingly barely chopstick let alone whack out some Jarre at will. Given most 'greatest electronic legends of their generation' have really only had some form of a keyboard to work with you'd think he'd really be banging out them paradiddles. As for the theory....I take that's why the likes of Jimmy Douglas & Marcella Araica et al are neccesary when the desk needs plugged in?
This is my main reason for calling you an idiot. That is simply not true. It was not possible to create a piece of electronic music in real time "back in the day."


Your on the wrong thread - that's the other one. But whilst we're here - are you claiming these arrived from the future? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjf04jLaqbo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kri5GLtXc3s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5A47vzdR9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZt64_XOflk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we55QQcsvY4

and going way back....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WDHiVyOAJo (used to be an awesome live vid up of this - but it was pulled).

No point arguing over the styles of music - they all seem reasonably electronic led (or were regarded as such at the time), even Kraftwerk used some real drumming, but all demonstrate musicality that was performed live. You know 'live'? Where you can see them actually physically play something and connect it with a sound coming out? Just find me a clip of your hero doing SOMETHING like that....shit even Flavour Flav has got documented chops beyond, er, chopsticks so finding SOMETHING really shouldn't be proving too much of an issue with one of the 'greatest electronic musicians of his generation' should it? I found one remember? :wink:
No, but the OP claims "he doesnt have an ounce of talent in him.have you heard the cheezy sounds and beats he makes.im sure everyone on this forum could come up with one his beats in five minutes." Not true. and if it were, where are the results?


Believe it or not - not everyone on the internet is interested in desperately promoting themselves via that form of media. However if you want the job done put up a thousand then they'll come :)
So now what? you're just going to spew some complete bullshit, so i would have been better off leaving it at the insult you deserved.
Whist as you were asked, politely, and for a third time in another thread (where you brought it up no less), your unproven belief doesn't & hasn't merited any personal insults from me. I certainly have not referred to you as a 'moron' or an 'idiot'. But If you want to continue further do everyone a favour and kindly take it to PM's as a) there are more important, and relevant, things to discuss and b) the usual jpeg/gif flood will start :)

leisuremuffin
Posts: 4721
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:45 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Post by leisuremuffin » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:28 am

You could've just retracted that rather than poorly rewording it but, anyway, so if you've still no proof what are you doing putting an unverified recent example up on some kind of pedestal? Sales and popularity?
i don't even know what you're talking about here. as far as i know, you're telling me that the guy who almost single handedly changed the entire sound of RnB isn't a musician according to you. what the above paragraph has to do with it at all, i have no fucking clue. sales and popularity? i don't really care, what i do know is that before timbaland, most RnB production was boring as shit, after timmy it's something i don't turn off when it comes on the radio. I don't think it's te best thing ever, but it certainly deserving of respect, and in my opinion, at least 100x more interesting that 80% of mainstream dance music.
So, essentially, you have no proof whatsoever, of your own belief, in your idols involvement in anything - I posted a link of him looking like a cack handed knob and you casually deny it's relevance? He can seemingly barely chopstick let alone whack out some Jarre at will.... blather blather blah blah horseshit.

right, here's where you ignore the whole point of what i was saying. Which is, one does not have to have a clip on youtube to be a musician. one does not have to perform live to be an electronic musician. there are plenty of great and respected electronic musicians that you cannot find a clip of them doing anything. I don't like "burial" but just because you can't produce a video clip of him making music doesn't mean that he isn't a musician.


furthermore, every you tube video you posted is from AFTER the invention of the sequencer and control voltage. So, again, you lose. the only one that you have any point on is the silver apples, they were amazing, and simeons homemade oscilator kit is a pretty cool little homemade instrument and they are great.

however, none of that makes any of the true PIONEERS not musicians because they couldn't perform their compositions in real time. And neither does it discount the work of someone today who only works by sequencing and editing and refining. It's a way of working that is as legitimate as any other.


in conclusion:
yep, you're an idiot alright.


by your logic, if there isn't a clip of someone "doing something musical" that's up to your standards they aren't a musician.


carry on, fucktard.


keep backpedaling on your moronic evaluation of early electronic music as well.



.lm.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

dcease
Posts: 2405
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:43 am

Post by dcease » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:45 am

someone hook me up with some beats... i don't care how you make them. i just wanna chew the mic, i'd rather not make my own anymore, it's not as fun as flow, or the retarded noise i make with live...

Nod
Posts: 781
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:18 pm

Post by Nod » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:59 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:i don't even know what you're talking about here. as far as i know, you're telling me that the guy who almost single handedly


LOL - there you go again...attributing things you can't verify.
changed the entire sound of RnB isn't a musician according to you. what the above paragraph has to do with it at all, i have no fucking clue. sales and popularity? i don't really care, what i do know is that before timbaland, most RnB production was boring as shit, after timmy it's something i don't turn off when it comes on the radio. I don't think it's te best thing ever, but it certainly deserving of respect, and in my opinion, at least 100x more interesting that 80% of mainstream dance music.


With all due respect you weren't asked for your opinion - you were asked, again, for something to validate it. Oddly enough that's seemingly quite difficult to do given we're dealing with a major popular 'artiste'. However if you like the guy, for whatever reason, great. Enthusiasm is in short enough supply as it is.
right, here's where you ignore the whole point of what i was saying. Which is, one does not have to have a clip on youtube to be a musician. one does not have to perform live to be an electronic musician. there are plenty of great and respected electronic musicians that you cannot find a clip of them doing anything. I don't like "burial" but just because you can't produce a video clip of him making music doesn't mean that he isn't a musician.
That is a fair point - so perhaps we really shouldn't hold anyone in such high esteem any longer in this industry, given the technology and continual misappropriation of credit, unless we can really witness their talents? Could be anyone I suppose - even the teaboy or the tapeop actually doing the work if not a stolen uncredited sample couldn't it? How do *you* think we can be sure anymore?
furthermore, every you tube video you posted is from AFTER the invention of the sequencer and control voltage. So, again, you lose. the only one that you have any point on is the silver apples, they were amazing, and simeons homemade oscilator kit is a pretty cool little homemade instrument and they are great.
We agree on the Apples at least - but you probably noticed the rest of the 'musicians' in those vids playing their electronic instruments? Again you obviously did notice that only the Kraftwerk vid featured use of a sequencer, whilst they others played, so I'm not sure eaxctly what your point is? We could raise Carlos, Hancock, Emerson, Wakeman, Jarre....sure there's loads of peeps that could really play - however they're obviously all electronic keyboards and perhaps not the most relevant examples. But what precisely does Timbaland do, in your eyes, thats so special to stand in the same 'league'? Groove quantise / syncopation? I assure you that's a serious question and not a dig.
however, none of that makes any of the true PIONEERS not musicians because they couldn't perform their compositions in real time. And neither does it discount the work of someone today who only works by sequencing and editing and refining. It's a way of working that is as legitimate as any other.
We've not been 'discussing' musique concrete or even forms of editing, your raising this in the wrong thread and attempting to skew my question into a perceived general attack on electronic musicians - like the great ones I've referenced (perhaps even yourself) - rather than specifically discussing your assertion. Kindly don't so obviously misrepresent my position and the question posed to you.
in conclusion: yep, you're an idiot alright. by your logic, if there isn't a clip of someone "doing something musical" that's up to your standards they aren't a musician. carry on, fucktard. keep backpedaling on your moronic evaluation of early electronic music as well.
Back to the insults again? <shrugs> What backpedalling evaluation was this? Kindly quote and actually attempt to explain your charges - the same thing that up till now appears to be causing the confusion. As for my musical 'standards' they're wide as hell - tho' it might well be seen as elitist, lol, but I do expect a little more than some chopsticks and a promise. So should you I think. This could evolve into an interesting discussion on different interpretations on who is actually creating all the music we hear as opposed to who is credited - however seeing as you insist upon stamping your opinion, instead of constructively attempting to address your claim, whilst never straying far from basic insults - 3 posts in a row in fact - we'll leave it till then.

leisuremuffin
Posts: 4721
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:45 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Post by leisuremuffin » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:22 pm

I still have no idea what you want me to verify. If you're talking about how he changed the sound of RnB, that's easy to verify. Listen to the first Ginuwine record, and the aaliyah stuff that he did. No one did that kind of stuff before, and now almost all RnB sounds like it could be backing tracks from LFO era Bjork. Of course, you're passing judgement without being familiar with his body of work, so you wouldn't know that.



About my issue with your statements on early electronic music:

you said pioneers.

The pioneers had no sequencers and no control voltage, hence, not real time performance. I still consider those folks to be electronic musicians. My point was that electronic music is not always in real time, and in fact it's origins were distinctly NOT real time. You're response was "pioneers could demonstrate virtuistic performances on their electronic instruments" Sorry, not in real time before control voltage. Unless you mean the theremin, telharmonium, or the super early telegraph instrument, which while all quite novel, don't blow away my argument.



The idea that you are asking for a video clip of timbaland doing something to validate the results he has on tape is just silly. As I have repeated over and over, that is simply not something you can get for MOST current electronic musicians. The ultra paranoid, "how do we know if it's not on video" stance you are taking is utterly ridiculous and you know it.


And you want me to put him in the same league as a bunch of keyboard wank artists? Why? He's not, what he does is entirely different. But it is music, and it does require talent.



.lm.



PS, -fuck you.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

leisuremuffin
Posts: 4721
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:45 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Post by leisuremuffin » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:30 pm

ooppps
meant to edit and ended with a double post.



i guess i can fill this space with insults:

Nod, you should have been a blowjob.



ok, carry on.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

Nod
Posts: 781
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:18 pm

Post by Nod » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:31 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:I still have no idea what you want me to verify. If you're talking about how he changed the sound of RnB, that's easy to verify. Listen to the first Ginuwine record, and the aaliyah stuff that he did. No one did that kind of stuff before, and now almost all RnB sounds like it could be backing tracks from LFO era Bjork. Of course, you're passing judgement without being familiar with his body of work, so you wouldn't know that.
You're right - I'm not overly familiar with his 'work' - that's precisely the question I've been wanting answered :) Not the final product, because there are lots more people involved than you seem to be attributing, but his 'work'. As Rasputin mooted - we appear to be coming at this seemingly from very different, and unfortunate choice of, angles. From what I have read he is credited with introducing different forms of rhythm than were previously popular (which is the kind of detail I'm looking for), obviously there is the controversy over his use of uncredited sampling (not just the 8 bit stuff) whilst some of those who've worked with him have stated he's either a) not done very much b) ripped their work. That's what I've read. Not asserting it's true - merely looking for something, other than sales, to either prove or dispell. The man's public quotes & interviews, that I've seen, certainly do not help.
About my issue with your statements on early electronic music: you said pioneers. The pioneers had no sequencers and no control voltage, hence, not real time performance. I still consider those folks to be electronic musicians. My point was that electronic music is not always in real time, and in fact it's origins were distinctly NOT real time. You're response was "pioneers could demonstrate virtuistic performances on their electronic instruments" Sorry, not in real time before control voltage. Unless you mean the theremin, telharmonium, or the super early telegraph instrument, which while all quite novel, don't blow away my argument.
As you've said, there are examples. Many people here seem to be seeking the same form of immediacy that is attributed to more traditional instruments ie: instant hands on control - and the interfaces do seem to be getting better and better all the time. But whether either of us like it or not there is a greater challenge faced by electronic musicians, the same one that's been ongoing for decades, where much of Joe Public, and even other musicians, don't actually recognise the skills required. That hardly sounds like me putting those skills down does it? The fear tho' is that the other side of the argument - look at what happens when a piece of video appears here where it's apparent that someone isn't doing, or in fact there is no basic evidence, with what the are credited with? Surely these people are making it even more difficult for those with genuine skills to have them held in esteem? You might think that's a really bloody obvious, even tedious or moronic, argument - but I think it is, and will remain, an important one.
The idea that you are asking for a video clip of timbaland doing something to validate the results he has on tape is just silly. As I have repeated over and over, that is simply not something you can get for MOST current electronic musicians. The ultra paranoid, "how do we know if it's not on video" stance you are taking is utterly ridiculous and you know it. And you want me to put him in the same league as a bunch of keyboard wank artists? Why? He's not, what he does is entirely different. But it is music, and it does require talent.


Fair enough Muffin - however I don't think it's that unreasonable to expect an artist to explain something of their process let alone want to demonstrate it. I don't apply that soley to electronic musicians and neither do I think it's elitist. We are all very quick to point out the obvious fakes - but at the same time accept, sometimes purely on face value, the less obvious.
PS, -fuck you.
:lol:

leisuremuffin
Posts: 4721
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:45 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Post by leisuremuffin » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:10 pm

Where have you read that stuff about him? you believe those statements (what statements, by the way? what you are saying is VERY vague) withouth proof, but to believe that he makes his own beats you need a fucking video?

I don't give a shit about what the "public" wants from electronic music. If i make a piece of incredible music using modern concrete style techniques, I am still a musician, whether you like it or not. This is exactly what "burial" claims to do, and people cum all over the idea.



If somebody else made those beats on the ginuine, aaliyah and missy records that person is one talented motherfucker. I'm gonna go ahead and believe that it was indeed timbaland, but you can believe whatever insane conspiricy theory you want. I find it highly amusing that you're asking me to deliver proof that it is so rather than the other way around.



.lm.

PS, you are a cum gargeling cave troll.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

Rogue Scrunt
Posts: 1272
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:32 am
Location: Colorado Springs, USA

Post by Rogue Scrunt » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:13 pm

my favorite tmbaland track of all time
dirt off your shoulder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSCZbqAQRJo


he is not all that.

a lot of his sound is from his engineer
Jimmy Douglas
if you have the time, watch the videos, and you will learn a lot about quality production
http://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/LECT ... ession=216
for lots of great records, check out,
http://stores.ebay.com/id=64360994?ssPageName=ME:F:ST

Sleep Tyght
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 6:15 pm
Location: New York

Post by Sleep Tyght » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:15 pm

...Nope. Can't take this forum seriously at all.


Anyone care to post more Orange People pics?
Whatever Doesn't Kill You, Only Makes You Stranger.

Nod
Posts: 781
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:18 pm

Post by Nod » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:51 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:Where have you read that stuff about him?
Do your own research - same as you've been asked to do repeatedly. It's pretty public and easy to find.
you believe those statements (what statements, by the way? what you are saying is VERY vague) withouth proof, but to believe that he makes his own beats you need a fucking video?
Try actually reading Muffin rather than interpreting things as you see fit. I didn't make any statement regarding my belief in those statements, merely that they were public, but we're gonna need something other than the big phat fuck all you've provided to counter so far ain't we? Tell you what - I'll lower the bar for you - got any interviews outlining some technical detail? :wink:
I don't give a shit about what the "public" wants from electronic music. If i make a piece of incredible music using modern concrete style techniques, I am still a musician, whether you like it or not. This is exactly what "burial" claims to do, and people cum all over the idea.


We, for the last time, are not discussing you - or your perception of your own importance in anything. Or Burial. Or anyone else and what makes them a musician. Is that clear enough for you? These repeated attempts to obfuscate the issue are making your arguments increasingly poor.
If somebody else made those beats on the ginuine, aaliyah and missy records that person is one talented motherfucker. I'm gonna go ahead and believe that it was indeed timbaland, but you can believe whatever insane conspiricy theory you want. I find it highly amusing that you're asking me to deliver proof that it is so rather than the other way around.


I didn't make farcical claims about someone I don't know, and had never seen working, did I? Believe what you want Muffin - even if you can't back it :)
PS, you are a cum gargeling cave troll.
That could be considered, by some, to be the high water mark of your arguments - then again the rest's been predominately shite as well :lol:
Last edited by Nod on Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply