mastering in live.

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:18 pm

ethios4 wrote:@ Pasha - dither should be the last step you do. You should export the song at 88.2 kHz and the highest bit-depth you can. Then run it through your mastering chain, and export from there to 44.1/16 with dither. After this step, you should not make any further changes to the file.

By exporting at 88.2 kHz, you will get great resolution, and it will be easy to convert to 44.1 because the math is very simple (divide by two....if you try to go from 48>44.1 or 96>44.1 you will end up with rounding errors....very very subtle distortion). I have noticed definite improvements to details by rendering at higher sample rate than 44.1 prior to mastering.

Dither is always the last step because any processing at all will ruin the effect of dithering, which is to bring up the tiny details lost by converting from a higher bit-depth to a lower bit-depth.

Thanks ethios4. Your explanations are very useful.
I own only Live and so what I was doing was reaching the best balance of level and frequencies by using volume and EQ. I simply do not use other than a Limiter (the Live effect preset Tarekith talks about in his guide) when absolutely needed otherwise the Master channel is naked when I export (and dither). The reason why I started changing my mind was because this morning, after a sleepless night I suddenly remembered that one of the new Garage Band Features in iLife08 is Master Track and Master effects. I took one Live Project, exported it w/o dither (44.1 Khz - 24 bit) and imported the stereo track into Garage Band (you can ROFL at this point) and played with Master channel presets. They have some exotic names like 'Pop Refresh' 'R&B Warm'. I tried some.
I was surprised by how different (and better) my music played. I never thought of using an EQ after the export because I thought that when you have equalized every track you do not need to do the same on the Master Track. Live has some audio rack presets in the Master & Helper section but you are supposed to tweak them while GB provides you with a lot of alternatives already there and easy to figure out from their names. That's when I began to think that maybe after the export (w/o dithering) I could pass the stereo track through GB Master Channel to get an easy idea and then reproduce similar sound using Live's effects (primarily EQ) and superior audio engine. I know it sounds unprofessional and stupid but it opened a door for me.
Live is perfectly capable of doing that with ease. So in the future I'll let GB down.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:57 pm

Sounds good...I haven't used GB so I don't anything about that stuff....if it's helping you then use it! You might try exporting from Live at 88.2, and see if that sounds any different in GB (if it can take 88.2 files). Difference will probably be minimal.

I used to use EQ on the master more, but as my knowledge of mixing improves I don't do it anymore except for a high-pass to cut off freqs below 35 Hz. I just use a bit of stereo enhancement and Elephant for a mastering limiter. I think using EQ in mastering might be a bit beyond me at this point...wouldn't know what I was going for...

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:33 am

ethios4 wrote:Sounds good...I haven't used GB so I don't anything about that stuff....if it's helping you then use it! You might try exporting from Live at 88.2, and see if that sounds any different in GB (if it can take 88.2 files). Difference will probably be minimal.

I used to use EQ on the master more, but as my knowledge of mixing improves I don't do it anymore except for a high-pass to cut off freqs below 35 Hz. I just use a bit of stereo enhancement and Elephant for a mastering limiter. I think using EQ in mastering might be a bit beyond me at this point...wouldn't know what I was going for...

Unfortunately my Audio card can do only 44.1,48 & 96 for 16,24,32 bit.
At the moment, after many suggestions from this forum I'm recording @ 44.1/24bit
a good compromise between CPU and HDD space. I have to dither to 44.1/16bit to CD anyway. Beside that when pushed to 96khz my audio card taxes CPU a lot. Before Live 6 I was recording at 48Khz/24bit then I understood through the valuable suggestions of this forum that 44.1/24bit would have been better.
GB takes 44,48 at 24 bits.
GB gave me the idea. Yesterday I tried to build my Mastering chain recreating the EQ Curves in Live and I was satisfied. So now I can do the following:

1. Mixdown in Live, only a limiter on the Master and Export 44.1@24bit then bring in the stereo track in Live (no warping of course) and add EQ on the master and dither to 44.1@16bit
2.Mixdown in Live, put an EQ in the Master and Export 44.1@16bit adding dithering

It seems that being the signal process done in Live anyway the second option can be faster. Conversely, option 1 can lead me to have all stereo mixed songs in a Live Project so that everything will pass in the same Mastering Chain, blending all the songs together.
What do you think it's better? Is it worth to split the workflow in two passages even if I'm only using Live?

- Best
- Pasha

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:56 am

I say just keep it all in the same app and session if you're set on doing it all in Live and your CPU can handle it. Otherwise it's just an added step that doesn't add much, and is one more thing to back up.

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:37 am

Tarekith wrote:I say just keep it all in the same app and session if you're set on doing it all in Live and your CPU can handle it. Otherwise it's just an added step that doesn't add much, and is one more thing to back up.

Good. You know how much I value your suggestion!
You really changed the way my music sound more than 1 year ago when I first started all over again and remixed all my stuff putting the Master at 0db.
Thank you again. Beside that I have just tried to import my exported songs into a new project and found that the idea of a massive blending using the same Master Chain is harder than I thought. Master EQ needs to be changed for every clip so the best option here is to create a preset I like and then apply it to every single project and change it slightly just to adapt it to every song character without compromising the overall character of the song group, so I welcome your suggestion even more. Your suggestion are always useful and I appreciate you participating in the forums every time this subject pops up here and there despite you already summarized all the concepts in your guide.

- Best
- Pasha

Moody · Post by **Moody** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Less is usually more. Get the song sounding right in the mix. Forget about mastering it at this point.

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:38 pm

I guess my thought is why even use an EQ on the master? Why not just get the balance of instruments and frequencies right when doing the mixdown?

SubQ · Post by **SubQ** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:27 pm

Yes, worry aboout your mix, and if possible get your tracks on a professional mastering studio.

I love Rob Acid works, everything he defends on http://www.vimeo.com/808485?pg=embed&sec=808485 makes complete sense to me, and the gear, oh god...

But the main message is this: dont screw your mix trying to use too much plug ins on the master.

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:10 am

Tarekith wrote:I guess my thought is why even use an EQ on the master? Why not just get the balance of instruments and frequencies right when doing the mixdown?

You're right. Although EQ on the Master gives instant gratification, when you burn the result to CD and bring it into Car Stereos, Hi-Fi of your friends and so on it sounds really different. while the goal here should be to create something that on average sounds almost the same everywhere. Better if I come back to the source material and add EQ where it's needed, track by track. A bigger work but a more pleasant one in the end. I was trying to find shortcuts because I can only dedicate a fraction of my time to music making. I'm almost there anyway. People around me say it's taking too much to get a CD but after my first attempt without following your suggestions I was shocked by the bad results. I then started all over again, bought a set of monitors (I was doing it with Headphones...) non necessarily pro but enough for me to change my bad habits and a BCF2000. This really helped me in doing better mixes and the second Test CD I burned sounded better almost everywhere. The Garage Band stuff popped up only a few days ago when a friend of mine shared a record with me made with GB and I was pleased with the result. That's why I investigated the Master Channel stuff, new in GB.
After some rapid tests I decided it's not worth to go down that route even if from a fast gratification point of view you seems initially better.

- Best
- Pasha

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:56 pm

It is an incredible feeling to really nail a mix properly....well worth all the hard, sometimes tedious, work. It's the big payoff after spending a bunch of time writing the track. The mastering is the extra little bit that really makes it shine. All IMO of course.

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:12 am

Bobby Owsinski says it best in his book the mixing engineer's handbook.

(re compression and eq on the master channel)

do it for the record company execs, do if for a quick demo, do it to show clients if they need a louder reference to compare to a mastered recording.

But leave it off for mix sent to the Mastering Engineer. Overcompress and overbright EQ and the Mastering Engineer's capabilities are seriously diminished. Better to be quieter and a little duller sounding, this leaves the ME plenty of wiggle room to work his/her magic.

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:15 am

leedsquietman wrote:Bobby Owsinski says it best in his book the mixing engineer's handbook.

(re compression and eq on the master channel)

do it for the record company execs, do if for a quick demo, do it to show clients if they need a louder reference to compare to a mastered recording.

But leave it off for mix sent to the Mastering Engineer. Overcompress and overbright EQ and the Mastering Engineer's capabilities are seriously diminished. Better to be quieter and a little duller sounding, this leaves the ME plenty of wiggle room to work his/her magic.

I guess all depends on the destination of the output.
I agree that when someone needs to send his material to the ME it's better to send him something he can work on. However who can really afford sending songs to a ME Studio? I found Tarekith guide very useful. What I do not get is why almost every vendor puts in his products Master Channel Chain effects of some sort from Garage Band to Logic to Cubase to live it self. Why if it can be so detrimental? Why add dithering to DAW if you can have better quality outsourcing the process? I think the DAW developers want to deceive us by giving us so many options and the illusion of put us in charge of being the next ME.
When people on this forum were complaining about lack of dithering in Live 6 the Abes listened and put dithering i Live 7. Why? it seems to me that every time this comes up ithe common suggestion is to export with no dither a good mixdown at the same sampling rate and bit depths as the original recordings took place and then pass this on to the next step - the ME.
I have to say that I'm confused so that I'll try to use the very good advice on Tarekith's guides and adding a personal touch, just to please my ears. Songs will finish onto a CD anyway... Pls comment on my questions...

- Best
- Pasha

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:50 am

You are on the money in that for most intents and purposes, most users don't have the budget for mastering. Which is why there are mastering plugins and mastering chains included in DAWS and audio editing software such as Ozone, Audition and Soundforge. What I said applies to those who do have budget for mastering. (by a proper mastering engineer in a dedicated suite, not just some throw on a Waves L2 on some preset and charge 200 bucks for it)

Some producers have also typically liked the sound of things such as the SSL Master Buss compressor, so they stick a bit of it on.

I have done mastering courses myself and been recording for 22 years, so I tend to do all my own mastering, although if I had the money I would still get it mastered by an experienced ME.

Tarekith's guide is a good read (especially for beginners or intermediate users) and contains a lot of relevant information, If you are more experienced with audio recording, you should definitely also considering getting a copy of 'Mastering Audio - The Art And The Science' (2nd edition) by Bob Katz, often known as the 'bible'.

The dither situation needed to be addressed by Ableton because unless you had access to a 3rd party dither plug, you would not be able to dither your 24 bit recordings for 16 bit, which is required for CD an mp3 audio. Undithered *truncated* 24 bit recordings just saved as 16 bit files will have impaired sound quality. POW-R dithering is featured in many DAW solutions and is a good choice from Ableton.

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:50 pm

leedsquietman wrote:You are on the money in that for most intents and purposes, most users don't have the budget for mastering. Which is why there are mastering plugins and mastering chains included in DAWS and audio editing software such as Ozone, Audition and Soundforge. What I said applies to those who do have budget for mastering. (by a proper mastering engineer in a dedicated suite, not just some throw on a Waves L2 on some preset and charge 200 bucks for it)

Some producers have also typically liked the sound of things such as the SSL Master Buss compressor, so they stick a bit of it on.

I have done mastering courses myself and been recording for 22 years, so I tend to do all my own mastering, although if I had the money I would still get it mastered by an experienced ME.

Tarekith's guide is a good read (especially for beginners or intermediate users) and contains a lot of relevant information, If you are more experienced with audio recording, you should definitely also considering getting a copy of 'Mastering Audio - The Art And The Science' (2nd edition) by Bob Katz, often known as the 'bible'.

The dither situation needed to be addressed by Ableton because unless you had access to a 3rd party dither plug, you would not be able to dither your 24 bit recordings for 16 bit, which is required for CD an mp3 audio. Undithered *truncated* 24 bit recordings just saved as 16 bit files will have impaired sound quality. POW-R dithering is featured in many DAW solutions and is a good choice from Ableton.

Thank you for reply and clarification I appreciated it a lot. I think I'll get the bible...in the end. Learning is always exciting!

- Best
- Pasha

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:40 pm

I use dither and my own mastering chains in Live for 90% of exports...like when I want a version to listen to, burn for friends, or put up on myspace or something. I turn off dither and the mastering chains when exporting a raw file for sending to a mastering house, or when exporting stems for someone else to mix.

90% of the time I don't care that sample-rate and bit-depth changes might be better accomplished in another application, but it's good to know that info if it's critical to have the highest quality possible.

The Bob Katz book is great. Some of it takes awhile to get your head around, but it really rounded out my knowledge.