HUGE DISSAPOINTMENT - Still no automation midi clip record!

ilia · Post by **ilia** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:48 pm

Machinate wrote:What I mean by that is "access to input/output streams PLUS bidirectional access to UI == control anything on the UI. Now, there's still some caveats, as also mentioned by Khazul, like track generation, but at the very least *any knob and slider can be accessed by max* - and since it can intercept incoming streams.... it is no longer a case of not being able to control automation. Note that no-one is talking about Replacing anything. You currently CANT record automation into session view, I think Khazul is well aware of that - so it's a case of augmenting the "modulation" part, the clip envelopes.

Hope that is a bit clearer?
cheers.

Thanks, this is promising. One thing that's still not clear is whether MFL can mediate between user input and Live. As an example, I've always wanted to be able to CTRL-drag an edge of a clip on the arrange timeline and have Live automatically time-stretch the clip (Vegas-style). Is this something one would be able to implement?

Rosko · Post by **Rosko** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:51 pm

what about some kind of shell for the native instruments?

I think most of us understand the importance of this feature & the ableton team certainly do. Some of the posts on here are cringe worthy the childlike self importance of some people is grating.

I could maybe understand if the problem was being ignored or brushed off but it obviously isn't.

forge · Post by **forge** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:03 pm

Rosko wrote:what about some kind of shell for the native instruments?

I think most of us understand the importance of this feature & the ableton team certainly do. Some of the posts on here are cringe worthy the childlike self importance of some people is grating.

I could maybe understand if the problem was being ignored or brushed off but it obviously isn't.

in fairness, I know some people don't feel it's important at all, but when you think of it in terms of the basic, fundamental operation of Live

i.e. -

1. map a parameter to your controller
2. record a clip in session view
3. tweak your controller to control the parameter

this is pretty basic stuff, and we are now going on to Live 8 and clip envelopes were introduced in Live 3

so I don't think it's childish self importance for people to express their disappointment that it's now gone 5 major updates without being fixed

I mean, to me that suggests that it probably wont ever be, because if it really will require a major rewrite, then they will be rewriting a far more complex program than with Live 3 - each version adds to the complexity

anyway, I am really hoping that M4L will offer some major workarounds that will help this significantly, but I still am very much of the opinion that this particular functionality is a core feature that shouldn't be a workaround

but I totally agree, Ableton are obviously aware of it - but I think people can be forgiven for wondering how important they think it is if it's made it to Live 8 unaddressed

Rosko · Post by **Rosko** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:04 pm

forge wrote:
Rosko wrote:what about some kind of shell for the native instruments?

I think most of us understand the importance of this feature & the ableton team certainly do. Some of the posts on here are cringe worthy the childlike self importance of some people is grating.

I could maybe understand if the problem was being ignored or brushed off but it obviously isn't.

so I don't think it's childish self importance for people to express their disappointment that it's now gone 5 major updates without being fixed

not at all but i think the way some people put things is.

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:48 pm

decrepitude wrote: It is essential to midi sequencing .... Hardware midi sequencers have had this capability for decades!

if you sequence external midi gear, you can only use CCs.

hardware midi sequencers only record midi CC.

clips can record midi cc in the session view.

So basically you complain that you cannot record absolute vst automation in session view and that is another thing, one that midi and sequencers never touched anyway....

personally if Ableton adds automation lanes for midi CC in session view i will be happy...

I know what you mean, and deplored that limitation too, but since then I am just using midi CC and now can record automation in clips in session view. And you can use a midi loopback and do nice things with automation too.

..but I would love ableton to give us good tools for editing curves AT LEAST A CONSTRAIN KEY!!!!!! like when you want to move a precise value on the timeline I hate to fiddle the way it is now !

Rosko · Post by **Rosko** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:06 pm

is the reason you still can't have smooth envelopes something to do with it needing a rewrite or just a matter of it not being a priority feature?

Khazul · Post by **Khazul** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Rosko wrote:is the reason you still can't have smooth envelopes something to do with it needing a rewrite or just a matter of it not being a priority feature?

Probably just that the time critical code that processes automation cant be cleanly (ie low risk and simple) changed to support anything other than simple linear interpolation.

If thats the case, then the UI probably isnt separated enough to allow a curve representation to the user while a line based representation in generated for the engine.

They have however hacked it for crossfading clips and thats possibly because it didnt involve messing with the automation code.

I guess the other view, it just isnt a priority feature - most companies marketting people find new feature alot easier to make a big show of them incremental improvement to exist8ing functionality - i expect this is why so manyu blindingly obvious workflow improvement get overlooked release after release by ableton, steineberg and everyone else until thye get hit in the pockets by irrateted users no longer buying the upgrades.

JEpic · Post by **JEpic** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:40 pm

Sad to hear this wont be implemented in the new release. THis is a feature I've been looking for since version 5 when I tried to use autofilter as a Wah Wah. It seems ovbious by whats been said that this is most likely a rewrite issue, but what does that mean for us? It seems the last rewrite was version 3 so how many more updates till we get another?

Some what OT but as Max has come up a lot in this discussion, how much of Ding in our CPU will all the max objects have?

Kodama · Post by **Kodama** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:56 pm

JEpic wrote: It seems ovbious by whats been said that this is most likely a rewrite issue, but what does that mean for us? It seems the last rewrite was version 3 so how many more updates till we get another?

It's all vocabulary and the way that Ableton describes "automation" in each area.

Recording Automation in session is a re-write issue. Recording Modulation (Clip Envelopes) is not a re-write issue.

3rd party devices that have been midi learned from their own interface (not Live's learning of the published parameters) can be recorded in session.

Native devices can not.

I.E. - you could record your "wah wah" in session with a freebee filter VST that supports midi learn, but the Live Auto Filter.

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:20 am

forge wrote: so I don't think it's childish self importance for people to express their disappointment that it's now gone 5 major updates without being fixed

I mean, to me that suggests that it probably wont ever be, because if it really will require a major rewrite, then they will be rewriting a far more complex program than with Live 3 - each version adds to the complexity

Exactly. Ableton have done some great work on this update. Hats off and thanks and congratulations. That doesn't mean that for some of us all the bells and whistles don't make up for the fundamental flaw that you can't just play something and expect to have it played back the same way. The session view is really what sets Live apart and it's been neglected for too long.

I think this may be the end of the road for me. A linear DAW + some pattern-oriented hardware suits me better.

Rosko · Post by **Rosko** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:54 am

I have a feeling it may be live 10 b4 we see a rewrite, obviously this is a guess it may be sooner, it may never happen.
i think 8 is a great update, live is still better than other hosts for me & i was a cubase user for years b4 i switched to live because i was so sick of stienbergs uningspiring new features for every update.

decrepitude · Post by **decrepitude** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:16 pm

Rosko wrote:not at all but i think the way some people put things is.

Well, we certainly live in a uber-politcally-correct world when "bullshit" is taken so personally. I went back and reread my original post and maybe I've lost all perspective, but I still can't see what was so insulting to Ableton.

I got pissed at a troll and admittedly I lost my cool and I ultimately apologized.

But I would like to correct myself and in saying that Ableton DOES do a very good job of listening. They are aware of the problem, and I would imagine they're are also not happy about it. But myself also being in a company which does some manufacturing of it's own, I know how difficult it is to be "between a rock and a hard place."

I've made my point, albeit some bruises and embarrassment.

So, we are simply faced with possibilities of workarounds.

I do like the possible idea of a plugin which can "listen" to controller data and spit it out to native devices in Live. Also, I wonder if we could convince Bomes or Midi stroke to implement some kind of recording function for CCs.

Finally - I want to say the new audio warping feature where you can drag beats to the timeline looks absolutely fantastic! THAT is sheer genius and Ableton deserves congratulations.

HUGE DISSAPOINTMENT - Still no automation midi clip record!

Re: HUGE DISSAPOINTMENT - Still no automation midi clip record!