Machinesworking wrote:knotkranky wrote:For fuck sake MW i'm against the fucking war! Geezus, lol. as usual you assume well too much about me and poorly at that. Ok, you believe there is no responsible way of getting out, so just do it already. Ok, I'm ready to be educated. What will transpire if we do?Machinesworking wrote: No colonialist made, dictatorship run, US trade sanctioned, and then occupied country like Iraq will be stable with our presence, and whether we pull out now or 50 years from now, the possibility of violence is still there. Yugoslavia is a great example in recent history. Eerily similar, three major ethnic groups, hostilities among them as a result of WW1 and 2, a dictator that held the country together, and chaos after he was gone. In this case though, Saddam isn't the dictator that 'holds the country together', it's the US occupational presence, and it's also a big reason for the chaos there.
Remember, we're talking about 18-25 year olds from all over the US, these aren't well trained diplomats, but kids, with guns, going though peoples houses, and shooting the wrong person on more than one occasion. I'm sorry man, but you're just being thick skinned about this. Nothing we do there is stabilizing the country, our presence is a destabilizing force, there's no doubt about it. When we leave, they will make deals with countries we don't 'approve' of, like Iran, and again, that will happen if we leave today or 50 years from now.
What is the amount of civilian deaths by our hands that tips you towards realizing that we simply cannot wear the badge of stabilizing force in a country we attacked without provocation?
You are most certainly not a tree hugging peace-nic. Sorry to break it to you, but you're about as moderate/reactionary as they come.
You're not against the war if you think us staying there is a good idea. The current 'democratically elected' government of Iraq wants us out, the people there want us gone, the whole of the middle east wants us out. People will die today or tomorrow there in some conflict brought out by all this, it's not any righteous move on our part to stay, we are not stabilizing the country by keeping armed forces there that don't even know the local language, who have raped and killed, who represent a government that started the war with little or no reason to begin with.
Parroting back what Obama or any of the elected officials say about this is just silly. We as the aggressor in this situation talking about how 20+ million people are not capable of running their own system, because what? because they don't have our values? If you or anybody else thinks we or any country can force "freedom" on people..... you cannot force people to be anti prejudiced, it's never happened and lasted.
They don't want us there, we have vested interest there, that's the only reality now, the BS about saving the Iraqis from themselves is so hypocritical and wrong headed it's not even funny. There's this arrogance that the west has about what they call freedom, and how great it is etc. How others want this, how our way of life should be embraced etc. Along with this, I think a lot of third world, and middle eastern countries have seen a consistent interest in our own corporate welfare. This is so predictable, Haliberton's no bid contracts aren't just reported here, the whole of the middle east sees that stuff, and notices that GWB and crew are all oil. These things, along with Obamas continued back peddling on his Iraq exit strategy, these things make us look like shit there. With that in mind, ask yourself if the average Iraqi, who's lost people in the war, who's life is interrupted by all this, if he thinks the USA forces are preventing Iraq from falling to chaos, or if the forces are perpetuating it? I would be willing to bet his answer (if asked in an anonymous fashion with no fear of being branded a terrorist), would be that we need to go, ASAP, period.
The short of it is this, they see us as self serving colonialists, there will be trouble there whether we go or stay, and there's nothing we can do to prevent that.
Don't kid yourself, history has proven over and over again that the aggressor can't stabilize a country with military force forever.
What?? no no no, I don't think staying there is a great idea.
Dude, I want the fuck out of iraq as quickly and as responsibly possible.
Right, we are not stabilizing shit, but we could destabilize it a hell of a lot more by how we leave.
I don't disagree with a single word you've said except for what you think i've said.
There is the right way and the wrong way to bring all the troops home.
Sorry, I don't have anymore for anyone who doesn't have sensitivity to that. I think you broke yer listening bone.
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