bitwig - anyone know the ins and outs

[sijarvis]

Any "paranoia" comes from reading posts in other forums which claim that they were fundamental in stabilising Live.

Aaaaannnyway, enough about me Can you back up this statement with some links or not?

give me a bit of time and i'll find the posts for you. I never made notes of them when i came across them, so you'll just have to be patient.

Anyway, as i've already said, more important than the comments is the reality of the situation. Is Ableton stable yet? Reading the comments in the forum, i'd have to say "no". Also, it doesn't yet seem to be that efficient for a lot of users. This is just as important as stability, if not more so.

[sijarvis]

...and if they've won a competition to fund their going solo, they must be pretty damn good.

From my experience, this has nothing to do with your programming skills and all to do with a) your business plan, and b) your connections.

Actually, they won a 25k start-up grant. This was a competition so had nothing to do with business plan or connections, it was skills in coding that won them it.

So what's your business called?

[hoffman2k]

You remind me of a German fella who had it all figured out.
Regardless of the facts, what you say is the ultimate truth. So the argument goes on. With both parties unable to actually specify which tasks these guys had at Ableton. I haven't heard the word Vember Audio yet, so I suppose the history is lost on you too.

If you dig into the beta discussions, you can exactly figure out what some of these guys focused on. Did they win the 25k grant after or before they left Ableton?
Why would anybody leave an audio company with over 500% growth and M4L coming up?
Maybe they had an idea that complemented Ableton's idea. So obviously great that they can win an innovation award (startup grant). Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ableton's hall is loaded with awards.
It goes something like this from left to right = hundreds of music magazines - midi controllers - awards..

To suggest that those 4 guys are key to Ableton's success is ignorant at best. Some of them barely were there for a year.
But if they're smart enough to win an innovation award in Germany of all places, why the hell would they stay at Ableton getting paid a programmers wage.
Even if Ableton paid them more, still doesn't change the fact that they could be their own boss. No amount of job satisfaction or wages can make up for that.

So yeah. More facts please!
What did they work on in Live?
What are they making now?
I think its some kind of car or sequencer

[aleme]

If Ableton will release Live 9 at the beginning of next year I´m done with Ableton.

[Nokatus]

Actually, Claes has posted that he had to leave Ableton. I can't find the actual post but here's a link mentioning it, at the bottom of the page, claes posts a comment confirming it.... http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3505313

I can't find any comments in regards to the other coders, though if one of them had to leave, then it's quite possible the others were put under the same pressure.

Now, stop there for a moment. You're reading it all wrong. Where does it say he "had to leave" and was "put under pressure"? It says:

Yeah, he posted at the Vember Audio forum to the effect that he had "quit" Ableton

and:

Yes. I've quit to work on a new project of my own. Our own actually, as it's not just me this time but an awesome little team.

You're mistaking a mere past tense, "had quit", for something quite different. My guess is, you're perceiving it like this because that's what you wanted to see in the first place. Reading your rants, it really sounds like you're holding some kind of personal grudge against Ableton as a company.

I hope you're having great fun post beta testing it for them. You must feel special having paid for the privelege.

I've already produced one animation soundtrack and won one competition using Live 8, so yeah, I think "post beta testing" works out for me nicely .

This guy (previously Jarvisimon) has to be one of the most pessimistic would-be customers around. Again, for the ones who didn't read this guy's rants the last time, he was indeed replied by Ableton, politely and as sufficiently as can be realistically expected, about the upcoming updates to Live. Instead of thanking them, he insisted seeing assurances of a rigid pre-announced timetable and the likes. I hope, after making such a fuss, he at least PMd his thanks once the updates started rolling in as Ableton had said.

And yeah, I know where this thread is most likely headed, so I'm not about to go into it deeper, thannnnk you . Just stopping by and giving some perspective on what mindset he's coming from.

[paq]

Actually, they won a 25k start-up grant. This was a competition so had nothing to do with business plan or connections, it was skills in coding that won them it.

hi again. that has nothin to do with their skills (even if they're skilled for sure, if they want to code a completely new music software within 1-2 years, if they werent skilled, they had to be completely knuckleheads).

they won that startup-grant by a german ministry where nobody has any idea of what makes a good coder. its just they showed their idea. and that ministry knows, music software are great export-goods, because ableton has won this 25k-grant 10 years ago, and see where it went to. so this really is no argument.

[Angstrom]

This guy (previously Jarvisimon) has to be one of the most pessimistic would-be customers around. Again, for the ones who didn't read this guy's rants the last time, he was indeed replied by Ableton, politely and as sufficiently as can be realistically expected, about the upcoming updates to Live. Instead of thanking them, he insisted seeing assurances of a rigid pre-announced timetable and the likes. I hope, after making such a fuss, he at least PMd his thanks once the updates started rolling in as Ableton had said.

aha, it's that guy. That explains a lot!

He had me ROTFL last time round. This time it's like a big story he's cooked up about a wicked witch chasing the magic children out of the forest. More great imaginative work.

[sijarvis]

This guy (previously Jarvisimon) has to be one of the most pessimistic would-be customers around. Again, for the ones who didn't read this guy's rants the last time, he was indeed replied by Ableton, politely and as sufficiently as can be realistically expected, about the upcoming updates to Live. Instead of thanking them, he insisted seeing assurances of a rigid pre-announced timetable and the likes. I hope, after making such a fuss, he at least PMd his thanks once the updates started rolling in as Ableton had said.

Wrong Nokatus, whilst I used the term "firm reassurance", my suggestions were not demands for rigid timetables but suggestions. During the proper beta Ableton were posting updates ever few days, infact I must have downloaded over 6 gb of betas if not more, so why would regular speedier updates be any different? If you read that thread again, I say something like "why not post a fix once it's been done?" I don't think anything could be fairer/quicker than that.

And rather than a "pessimistic would-be customer", I prefer to think of myself as a disgruntled ACTUAL customer. If you want to pat people on the back and say how great they are, that's up to you but in doing so, nothing will change greatly. However, if you make a point of saying that you're not happy, as I have done in regards to the release of the incredibly buggy Live 8 then you're more likely to get listened to, especially seeing as many other people are still voicing their unhappiness.

So i'll say it again as I know Ableton employees read these forums.

Please Ableton big cheeses....do not release such buggy software on to the paying public when you know it's not ready. You may get your bum licked by the fanboys but the rest of us will not be too pleased with you at all. You can destroy your reputation far easier than you made it. The choice is yours.

aha, it's that guy. That explains a lot!

Yes that is all my posts. Something I don't deny. Fanboys such as yourself can be perfectly happy to buy unready software, that makes no difference to me at all. It won't stop the fact that Ableton released it too early and that I won't upgrade for a while longer yet.

He had me ROTFL last time round. This time it's like a big story he's cooked up about a wicked witch chasing the magic children out of the forest. More great imaginative work.

Now who's full of shite angstrom?

It's funny that I should be accused of not adding quotes to my arguments, then you come up with some total fanciful tripe and think that's ok. Is this hypocrites forum day?

[Angstrom]

what the hell are you talking about? You've posted something there that I didn't say.
And where do I come up with fanciful tripe?
nowhere.

explain exactly and specifically the things I have said which are wrong

[hoffman2k]

[necho]

To help your friend set up a business is quite an odd reason. He must have been a good friend or he was rich enough to pay you for what you would have earned in your job.

mate - you're WEIRD.

Never had the urge to do something exciting and risky before? Never heard of start-up investment?

anyways - enough of this creepy OT personal-life probing....

I wanna know what bitwig are up to.... (and by that I don't mean what they eat for breakfast and why)

[sijarvis]

what the hell are you talking about? You've posted something there that I didn't say.
And where do I come up with fanciful tripe?
nowhere.

explain exactly and specifically the things I have said which are wrong

The bit where you say "it's like a big story he's cooked up about a wicked witch chasing the magic children out of the forest".

My post is a valid concern in regards to Ableton's stability and its slow path towards it. It was certainly not ready for release when they released it and although i'm sure many problems have since been solved, i'm not convinced it's there yet.

I doubt anyone who paid for Live 8 and its buggy problems are ROFL...do you?

I especially like the way they renamed "bugs and fixes" to "support corner". Sounds nicer doesn't it? The bugs are still there though. Remember that when Live 9 is released and Live 8 still isn't ready, then see how you feel about handing over a wedge of cash.

Now don't get me wrong, you can be as disgusted by my posts as you like but I love Live 7, it really is incredible and I would really love to say the same about Live 8, I just don't think I can yet.

[sijarvis]

mate - you're WEIRD.

Weird is a very strong word and quite insulting to be honest, so I'd prefer it were you to use something else unless you actually believe it to be true. Seeing as this is an on-line forum and you have no idea about my life, I don't think you can honestly back that word up with anything substantial.

And yes, of course I prefer to be working for myself. I do that anyway. I'm just not rich because of it....yet.

[sijarvis]

It's a funny old world really hoffman. If I didn't care about someone, I'd let them carry on making mistake after mistake, knowing that soon enough, they would have dug themselves a deep enough hole to bury themselves in. Voila, the people you least care about are then out of the picture.

Sometimes you have to be quite straightforward and come out with some painful truths when you do care about something/someone. How else are they supposed to gauge your feelings?

I don't mind being attacked by all the fanboys in all the world but I know that they'll never stretch the boundaries, they're perfectly happy patting people on the back and saying "great, super, fantastic" and you're left with something that'll never improve.

There's more to a disgruntled post than meets the eye and the more people who add their voice the more likely it'll become a priority.

As I said, it's a funny old world.

[anybody human]

Why does someone leave a good job to start their own business?
To make more money.
To run the show.
Take on a new challenge.
Realize a dream.
I find it hard to believe Ableton are jerks to work for. People leave software houses to start their own all the time. That's how it works. Good luck to them. I'll definitely check it out.