I've gotta sound off on the whole Live - MAC vs. PC thing...

[McQ714]

@ Neb... i just realize... that is 34 tracks, that is a joke right?

to avoid misunderstanding... that is very little, my friend.

The arrange window shows 63, without having to scroll.

OK, that shows what?

that a PC can handle that... of course, dismissed. you also miss the point of discussion.

does it make windows more comfortable and reliable... NO. even if i don't doubt that it never lead to problems in your case... take 500 other users vs 500 OSX users. or if you are so good in PCs come to our company and deal with the systems there... but be aware that it might extend your home hifi / Ableton Live studio.

i think you need to go back and read the first post of this thread again. maybe you just don't understand english too well!?! and the point of this discussion is now that my less expensive custom built daw kicks your mac's ass across the board. i have a faster CPU, faster RAM, and faster hard drives.

and who was the moron that said that vista 64 could only address 3 gb of RAM to a 32-bit application???

"I running windwos Vista 64-bit with 8-GB of ram. Most of my applications are 32-bit applications. How much RAM can VISTA dedicates to 32-bit application?"

64 bit editions of Windows can only attribute a total of 4 GiB of RAM to any single 32 bit virtual memory instance (or application), regardless of your total RAM. The reason is simple, 64 bit editions of Desktop Windows run on the x86-64 architecture, which is a processor architecture capable of running both 64 and 32 bit instructions, limiting 32 bit instructions (or applications) to what 32 bit limits them to, thus, 4 GiB of RAM.

Intel and AMD's specification of PAE does support the x86-64 architecture but the software layer of Microsoft's PAE (the API), called AWE, is not supported on 64 bit editions of Windows, so Windows Vista 64 bit cannot attribute more than 4 GiB of RAM for a 32 bit application.

In fact, true 64 bit architectures like the Intel Itanium processor do not support 32 bit applications. The only reason 32 bit applications work on 64 bit editions of desktop Windows is because the very architecture at its core, called x86-64 (often erroneously shortened to x64), is a hybrid architecture capable of running both 32 bit and 64 bit instructions.

It's also the reason why drivers may not work in 32 bit, but applications will, on Windows Vista 64 bit. The Windows Vista 64 bit kernel is written in 64 bit, and thus, drivers must also be written in 64 bit. If Microsoft would have made the kernel in 32 bit, expanded support would have had to rely on PAE, but drivers wouldn't have had to be re-written. In fact, Apple used that strategy with Mac OS X's transition to 64 bit processors and only its future Snow Leopard will have its kernel in 64 bit.

so for all of you who said that vista sucked because the drivers didn't work, that's because 3rd party devs didn't do what they needed to do to fix that. and congrats mac users. you finally have a 64-bit OS!!!

[SubFunk]

@ Neb... i just realize... that is 34 tracks, that is a joke right?

to avoid misunderstanding... that is very little, my friend.

The arrange window shows 63, without having to scroll.

ummmm, Digital Performer was tested 6 years ago running 130 tracks on a shitty under powered mac.... Way to fail on the dick wagging there. WTF do you need 63+ tracks for anyway?? I've never understood the incentive to needlessly stack tracks? I typically run 22 or so, and not because my computer can't handle it, but because the song is layered enough at that point IMO.

if you do live recording sessions / big pop / rock productions, 60 tracks plus is not much at all (depending on your kit and mic techniques a drum set can easy eat up already 20 tracks and more alone)... for electronic boom tschik, boom tschick i always wonder what the hell unnecessary they doing... i agree.

and that is something you can't compare, Live is all realtime of course it has by nature a much lower track count then DP, Logic or PT... if you could run only 60-70 tracks on a PT system in a recording studio you are basically fucked.

then again... this is way off topic, Live is not created for that sort of use...

[Machinesworking]

Just to get serious for one second (before going back to being a total ass, that is)

1. I've never had an issue with any of the PCs I've built in the past 10 years.
2. Never a trojan that my virus protection didn't thwart and destroy...meaning zero infection or infiltration.
3. Always cheaper than a mac by about 40-50%.
4. Always faster than an equally speced mac, especially with Live.
5. More options with software and hardware.
6. Ability to swap critical components without having to buy a whole new computer. Last year, new drives and ram. Some months ago, swapping the chip to a quadcore. And now, new video card.
7. Windows 7 is f-ing OUTSTANDING.

I have no doubt that OSX is excellent, and no doubts that the hardware goes thru ridiculous quality control. But I have a hard time making blanket statements like "macs are better" when my personal experience for over a decade is not the case.

I agree with this though, just not the bragging about a beta OS, or the swapping of RAM and hard drives as some miracle that only PCs can do, CPU/motherboard is pretty much the only thing that's difficult or impossible to swap on a mac.

Also, bragging about having to run virus protection and having it work?? <-- so you're running antivirus software and browsing the internet while Ableton Live is open? Sounds like a recipe for some fun software conflicts to me.

I still might get a Panasonic Toughbook though. Hopefully Windows 7 is out of beta if I ever do.

[IP]

there is not even a 0,001% for a win user to change the mind of a mac user
there is not even a 0,001% for a mac user to change the mind of a win user

Mac users feel more comfortable with mac
Win users feel more comfortable with win

mac can make music
win can make music

This topic cant go anywhere like millions of related topics to forums around the world.
Thats for sure.

Everyone has his personal opinion and all opinions should be respected.

I suggest to stop posting in the current topic
and start posting here http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... 47&start=0
to help solve my problem

[McQ714]

Sounds like a recipe for some fun software conflicts to me.

Are you saying that you can't multi-task on a Mac???

that's what computers are made for. how would Live, a web browser and some antivirus software lead to any conflicts? what kind of POS computer are you running?

[Machinesworking]

so for all of you who said that vista sucked because the drivers didn't work, that's because 3rd party devs didn't do what they needed to do to fix that.

Right, and it's some stroke of genius then that they wrote great drivers for OSX? Seriously drivers on OSX were always good. I think it's pretty obvious that MS missed the boat with Vista, installing drivers on XP sucks as well, worst part of the experience IMO. Why installing three times is OK I'll never get? hopefully 7 turns out as universally accepted and awesome as the PC fanboys that are beta testing it for them say it is. Hopefully they have a better installation process?

[knotkranky]

hey, I just talked a friend out of a PC purchase this morning, she's going mac now.

[SubFunk]

hey, I just talked a friend out of a PC purchase this morning, she's going mac now.

that looks like my new desktop picture, thanks.

[knotkranky]

yup

It's really a public service for the good of mankind and music.

[andydes]

I use both and don't really see what the big deal is either way.

But my Bosch Fridge/Freezer kicks the shit out of your Hotpoints and LGs

[SubFunk]

yup

It's really a public service for the good of mankind and music.

[Machinesworking]

Sounds like a recipe for some fun software conflicts to me.

Are you saying that you can't multi-task on a Mac???

that's what computers are made for. how would Live, a web browser and some antivirus software lead to any conflicts? what kind of POS computer are you running?

Anti Virus software running while working on a Live set? = lame. By it's nature AV software is invasive, it doesn't just idly sit there and only check your web browser etc. Go for it guys, but no, it's not a multi task issue at all, I typically have a browser open, Live, Itunes, a text editor, maybe quicktime or VLC player all open while working. None of those applications are designed to inspect the other applications, hard drive and browser/downloads etc. for viruses, and none are constantly running taking out CPU when not being used.
Arguing that anti virus software isn't ever a problem for you... basically you're not telling the truth. Every person I've ever met who uses Windows has a story about problems with anti virus software.

I'm not a Windows or PC hater by any means, I'm just for facing facts. Fact is having to run an anti virus program while your DAW and browser are open, sucks. Fact is, having to buy Apple hardware to run OSX instead of a Panasonic Toughbook for instance, sucks.

[interpolate]

The cost arguement is pretty worthless.

Recently I bought a 13 MBP with 4 gb of ram and 500 gb hd for $1400. I tried to configure a $600 inspirion with the same specs including all the bells and whistles that come with a mac by default and I arrived at $1300. So yeah, the difference was insignifant. The illusion is caused because Mac computers come with with more fundamental stuff by default.

Core Audio insignificant with another sound card?

Someone try to sync Ableton and Renoise at the same, transferring between all of them, all while being able to record into any of them at any time without downloading a ton of bizzare software and get back to me to tell me how you did. We can compare our methods.

We could do the same experiment syncing two networked computers together.

Could you expand on the $700 worth of stuff you bought for your PC to make it up to snuff w/ your mac? Seems like a lot to me.

I just bought a 2.2Ghz intel core duo, dedicated graphics card, 17" monitor, 300 GB HDD for $800 w/ a bag. With my already purchased audio interface I'm running Live seamlessly.

That being said it seems like what you are doing is far more complex than my simple 'record into Live and output the loops'. For what you are doing it probably is worth paying double the price so that you can sync to other machines, other software, or anything else you want to do more simply. For me, and most newbies who just want ableton to run smoothly, spending twice as much on a computer that will do the exact same thing is just throwing money away.

I just did it again, go to Dell, and select their inspiron (only 13inch available) and just configure it to include all the stuff Mac my mac has plus the stuff it has by default.


Pick a 2.26 ghz processor or cloeset thing to it
4 gb of ram
Give yourself the premium operating system (OSX gives you access to everything + software suite)
Give yourself the 3 year warrenty
Integrated Webcam
500 gb harddrive
The upgraded DVD+RW reader (the mac drive is actually quite more complex then this)
Give yourself the better battery (the osx battery actually outlasts this thing by about 7 hours)
Give yourself the middle ground sound card (even tho core audio is astounding)
Add blue tooth
Add a Wireless N Card
Throw in a printer (they all come with printers)

I got:
Inspiron 13
Starting Price $1,587
Instant Savings $250

Subtotal $1,337

You are basically saving less then 100 bucks. You are paying more if you don't get that "instant savings" whatever that is.

And as far as "what I do," reguardless core audio is far more powerful and flexible for a broad range of audio solutions then direct sound or asio4all.

[SubFunk]

having to buy Apple hardware to run OSX instead of a Panasonic Toughbook for instance, sucks.

no it's damn clever.

[SubFunk]

The cost arguement is pretty worthless.

Recently I bought a 13 MBP with 4 gb of ram and 500 gb hd for $1400. I tried to configure a $600 inspirion with the same specs including all the bells and whistles that come with a mac by default and I arrived at $1300. So yeah, the difference was insignifant. The illusion is caused because Mac computers come with with more fundamental stuff by default.

Core Audio insignificant with another sound card?

Someone try to sync Ableton and Renoise at the same, transferring between all of them, all while being able to record into any of them at any time without downloading a ton of bizzare software and get back to me to tell me how you did. We can compare our methods.

We could do the same experiment syncing two networked computers together.

Could you expand on the $700 worth of stuff you bought for your PC to make it up to snuff w/ your mac? Seems like a lot to me.

I just bought a 2.2Ghz intel core duo, dedicated graphics card, 17" monitor, 300 GB HDD for $800 w/ a bag. With my already purchased audio interface I'm running Live seamlessly.

That being said it seems like what you are doing is far more complex than my simple 'record into Live and output the loops'. For what you are doing it probably is worth paying double the price so that you can sync to other machines, other software, or anything else you want to do more simply. For me, and most newbies who just want ableton to run smoothly, spending twice as much on a computer that will do the exact same thing is just throwing money away.

I just did it again, go to Dell, and select their inspiron (only 13inch available) and just configure it to include all the stuff Mac my mac has plus the stuff it has by default.


Pick a 2.26 ghz processor or cloeset thing to it
4 gb of ram
Give yourself the premium operating system (OSX gives you access to everything + software suite)
Give yourself the 3 year warrenty
Integrated Webcam
500 gb harddrive
The upgraded DVD+RW reader (the mac drive is actually quite more complex then this)
Give yourself the better battery (the osx battery actually outlasts this thing by about 7 hours)
Give yourself the middle ground sound card (even tho core audio is astounding)
Add blue tooth
Add a Wireless N Card
Throw in a printer (they all come with printers)

I got:
Inspiron 13
Starting Price $1,587
Instant Savings $250

Subtotal $1,337

You are basically saving less then 100 bucks. You are paying more if you don't get that "instant savings" whatever that is.

And as far as "what I do," reguardless core audio is far more powerful and flexible for a broad range of audio solutions then direct sound or asio4all.

even an onboard sound card never matches an external one, the mac onboard sound cards in the laptops outperform nearly any PC card available, in terms of latency and sound plus features, like digital I/O

uff, and especially dell, we have mainly dell's at work and they are built like a bloody Trabant (the old east german car pictured here earlier)
and big n' clunky.